Troja eshte ne Shqiperi

[Kreksi]

Mos te harrojmi se serbet po perdorin edhe taktika te reja duke e falcifikuar historin e tyre deh duke u deklaruar qe ata jan populli me i vjeter i ballkanit.
paar disa vitesh ne "politiken e ilustrueme" me jave te tera ka nxjerrur fejtone kjo reviste nga autori Ivan Duretiç i cili thote se serbet nuk kan ardhur nga karpatet por jan autokton, ata qenkan gjoja dardanet dhe ileret e vjeter te cilet kan luftuar edhe deri para piramidave te faraonit Ramsez III etj qe mendt ti qesin keto shkrime ose duhet te qeshur...
I ter heroizmi i popullitr shqipetare kalon ne patronatin e tyre do thot se ata e kan pervetsuar deri aty sa qe kan intervenue serbet edhe ne univerzitete te europes me keto teori te rreme po per çudi ata i kan pranuar edhe duke i shpallur dr. te nderit keta historian akademik shkie....
Derisa ne kete studim te ketij rkmanit nuk permenden fare populli i sotem shqipetare atëhere dyshoj se ketu fshihet diçka tjeter ....mos vall shkiet do thojn se ne jemi ata trojanet e vjeter ?
Prej tyre duhet pritur gjdo gje derisa nuk ia dijmi biografin autorit.

[Kreksi]

Mos te harrojmi se serbet po perdorin edhe taktika te reja duke e falcifikuar historin e tyre deh duke u deklaruar qe ata jan populli me i vjeter i ballkanit.
paar disa vitesh ne "politiken e ilustrueme" me jave te tera ka nxjerrur fejtone kjo reviste nga autori Ivan Duretiç i cili thote se serbet nuk kan ardhur nga karpatet por jan autokton, ata qenkan gjoja dardanet dhe ileret e vjeter te cilet kan luftuar edhe deri para piramidave te faraonit Ramsez III etj qe mendt ti qesin keto shkrime ose duhet te qeshur...
I ter heroizmi i popullitr shqipetare kalon ne patronatin e tyre do thot se ata e kan pervetsuar deri aty sa qe kan intervenue serbet edhe ne univerzitete te europes me keto teori te rreme po per çudi ata i kan pranuar edhe duke i shpallur dr. te nderit keta historian akademik shkie....
Derisa ne kete studim te ketij rkmanit nuk permenden fare populli i sotem shqipetare atëhere dyshoj se ketu fshihet diçka tjeter ....mos vall shkiet do thojn se ne jemi ata trojanet e vjeter ?
Prej tyre duhet pritur gjdo gje derisa nuk ia dijmi biografin autorit.

greket e Serbet kan fallcifikua historin .

[DYDRINAS]

Kreksi,

Serbet e dijne prejardhjen e tyre shume mire.Nuk ka liber historik ne bote qe nuk shkruan per ardhjen e tyre nga verilindja e Evropes se ftohte.
Tjeter gje jane falsifikimet e rendomta por ne pergjithesi shkencat historike e kane vendosur ardhjen e tyre ne Ballkan me saktesi.
Ne jemi enigma e historise dhe sic duket kjo enigme ka filluar te zbardhet me fakte te reja historike.Per me teper kete enigme ne duhet te perpiqemi qe t'a zgjidhim dhe vete sa me pare.
Para disa viteve lexova nje histori te Shqiperise te nje autori amerikan (qe per fat te keq nuk ja mbaj mend emrin) i cili theksonte se historia e popullit shqiptar eshte grabitur nga popuj te tjere e vecanersiht nga ai grek (libri eshte i perkthyer ne shqip).
Ai thoshte se "nuk do te jete e larget dita kur keto falsifikime do te zbardhen dhe historia e popullit shqiptar do te zere vendin e merituar"..
Po ne qe shkruajme nuk jemi gje tjeter vecse amatore te kesaj shkence e ndersa pritet ne te ardhmen me shume nga nje brez i ri i cili ka mundesite qe te veproje me me dinamizem per historine tone sepse brezi qe po iken e beri si e beri pune e vet (qe per fat te keq ende eshte shume e ideologjizuar) dhe tashme do ja leje stafeten atyre qe shkollohen anekend Evropes e botes.
Nga ana e vet shteti shqiptar duhet te financoje shume ne kete fushe per shkencetaret e rinj historiane dhe arkeologe e fusha te tjera.
Shqiptaret duhet te gjejne perfundimisht rrenjet e tyre!
Pjese e kesaj eshte dhe Troja ndonese shume popuj kane deshiren te jene "trojane" dhe t'a bejne pjese te historise se tyre.
Une e citova ne fillim se lexova para disa kohesh nje autor serioz hollandez per kete ceshtje dhe ai shprehte aty nje sere dyshimesh per punen e Shlimanit dhe pyeste se "a eshte kjo Troja e vertete qe ka zbuluar Shliman?"
Do te mundohem t'a marr dhe njehere ne dore kete liber e te perkthej disa pjese nga dyshimet e ketij studjuesi qe ndoshta do te jene te vlefshme.

[Darius]

Mos te harrojmi se serbet po perdorin edhe taktika te reja duke e falcifikuar historin e tyre deh duke u deklaruar qe ata jan populli me i vjeter i ballkanit.
paar disa vitesh ne "politiken e ilustrueme" me jave te tera ka nxjerrur fejtone kjo reviste nga autori Ivan Duretiç i cili thote se serbet nuk kan ardhur nga karpatet por jan autokton, ata qenkan gjoja dardanet dhe ileret e vjeter te cilet kan luftuar edhe deri para piramidave te faraonit Ramsez III etj qe mendt ti qesin keto shkrime ose duhet te qeshur...
I ter heroizmi i popullitr shqipetare kalon ne patronatin e tyre do thot se ata e kan pervetsuar deri aty sa qe kan intervenue serbet edhe ne univerzitete te europes me keto teori te rreme po per çudi ata i kan pranuar edhe duke i shpallur dr. te nderit keta historian akademik shkie....
Derisa ne kete studim te ketij rkmanit nuk permenden fare populli i sotem shqipetare atëhere dyshoj se ketu fshihet diçka tjeter ....mos vall shkiet do thojn se ne jemi ata trojanet e vjeter ?
Prej tyre duhet pritur gjdo gje derisa nuk ia dijmi biografin autorit.

Per ate le te bejne gam gam sa te duan ata. Pergjigjen ja u kane dhene edhe antropologe te shquar qe kane studiuar pamjen fizike dhe menyren e ndertimit fizik te popujve te ndryshem te ballkanit. Gjurme te rraces ilire pervec se ne Shqiperi sot gjenden ne pjesen perendimore te Bosnjes, Kroaci dhe nje pjese e konsiderueshme e Dalmacise. Jane krahasuar kampionet e gjetura nga eshtrat dhe kafkat te ilireve ne shume treva dhe tiparet shume te ngjashme jane gjetur deri ne pjesen veriperendimore te ish-Jugosllavise. Kjo jo vetem rrezon pretendimin e serbeve si autoktone po i jep nje goditje edhe teorise tjeter te kufijve te dikurshem te trojeve qe zoteroheshin nga shqiptaret. Sipas rezultateve qe dilnin i binte qe iliret te ishin zoter te tokave nga dalmacia jugperendimore deri ne greqine veriperendimore dhe po ashtu ne lindje deri ne kufi me Bullgarine.
Po ashtu ka dhe nje material shume interesant nga dy albanolog te shquar gjerman qe fatkeqesisht sme kujtohen si emra dhe po perpiqem te gjej materialin qe pretendohet jo vetem qe ilirishtja ka rrjedhur nga pellazgjishtja por qe pellazgjishtja eshte gjuha me e vjeter nga e cila pa patur fillesen dhe gjuha e lashte egjyptjane. Studimi bazohej veten ne rrenjet e fjaleve. Cuditerisht shume fjale egjyptjane dilnin te njejta por ajo qe ishte akoma me e cuditshme ishte qe vete greqishtja e lashte kishte ne rrenje fjale shqipe ose me sakte pellazge. Do perpiqem ta gjej si material sepse ishte shume shume interesant.

[Luan Gashi]

Diku ne kete forum lexova se Troja nuk eshte ne Turqi pasiqe eshte shume e vogel !!
Eshte me se e vertet se Heinrich Schliemann ne fund te shekullit 19 kur per here te pare arrin ne Troje, bregun Hisarlik, flet me banoret vendas ku me vone edhe shkruan se nje pjese e madhe e banoreve te cilet me vone ishin edhe puntore te tij gjate gjurmimeve, ishin shqipetare, citat ( Albanese ), kete mund ta lexoni ne ditarin e tij. Studimet e fundit nga Prof.Dr Manfred Korfmann, profesor qe me ligjeroj edhe mua gjate studimeve, dhe zbulues i shume shtresave stratigrafike kohore dhe i vetmi qe ka licencen per te gjurmuar ne Troje qe nga viti 1988, tregojne se Troja eshte shume me e madhe se sa eshte e ditur deri me tash, per kete flasin edhe muret mbrojtese qe u zbuluan para pak kohe diku rreth 700 m larg qendres.
Sa i perket dyshimit se ku gjendet Troja i kisha lutur te gjithe ata qe kane deshire te merren me kete pune se pari te lexojn Homerin, Schliemanin, Korfmanin, Hoder-in e shume autore te tjere.

Me pershendetje

Arkeolog/antropolog Mr. Luan Gashi

[Kreksi]

Ju falem nderit përe referancat të cilat i kam lexuar por ketu behet bised dhe secili e jep mendimon e vetë si ja pren mendja. Kofmanin edhe ate e kam lexuar ne revista speciale duke bere radiografin nene toksore ku ka zbuluar disa mure te jashtme etj. por ende nk dihet se a ka qen kjo troja apo ndonje qytet tjeter ketu kurr s'do ia arrijmi ta gjejm te verteten. Iliaden e kam lexuar edhe ate por me e rendsishme pere te gjithe ështe qe ta lexojn homerin, nga vjen dhe qe shtyri te kendonte kenge te tilla.
kryesorja kjo eshte nje mitologji dhe ne te secili mundohet te jap diçka me te pasuruar se tjetri. kofmani dihet e mbron bashkevendesin e tijë por ai ishte i dhen per se tepermi te luaj rolin e porositur nga gruaja e tije Sofia qe ishte greke. Ato thesaret qe i quante te priamit etj.. fare nuk lidhen me historin e trojes por jan nje egzampar i veçant i nje periudhe para trojane se paku 1000 vjete para epokes Homerike e qe vetem Shlimani e Sofia e dijn se ku i kan blere ato stoli dikun ne vendet ballkanike, bile ka te dhena qe Shlimani ka kaluar kah trojet shqiptare deh s'eshte çudi qe do ti ket blere ato dikun nga ndonje fshatare i mjerë...
mandej pyete zoti kofmanin se e ciles kohe daton maska e art e pakzuar gjoja si e Agamemnonit, qe ende greket s'kan lejuar te behet ekspertiza...
Te gjitha keto manipulime Shlimani i kishte bere pere interesa te tija personale se ishte mire i paguar dhe i martuar me nje greke dhe pere kete ishte ne gjendje te mashtroje boten.
rrena herdo kur del ne sheshe.

[DYDRINAS]

Dyshimet e arkeologjise moderne nuk jane vetem tek vendosja e Trojes por dhe per ceshtjet qe vijojne:

1.A ka ekzistuar me te vertete nje Lufte e Trojes?

2.Nese ka patur nje lufte aty a ka qene ajo mes Hititeve dhe Ahhiyawa apo ndermjet Trojaneve dhe Akenjve?

Per me teper shih: http://www.archeology.org/0405/etc/troy.html

[DYDRINAS]

Lidhur me zbulimet e Schliemann dhe te vertetat per Trojen dhe Masken e Agamemnonit mund te gjeni tek:

http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320His...ers/04TROY.htm

ose duke kerkuar per "Was there a Trojan war" by Manfred Korfmann

[Hyllien]

Jo ore jo. Homeri e ka fajin. Duhet ta pershkruante ndryshe gjendjen. Ja ka fut kot, keta inxhimjeret e kohes dhe istorianet kane mese te drejte. Homeri ka qen rrote dhe ja ka fut kot. Troja eshte atje ku e kan gjet, vecse duhet me e perpunu pak me teper ate homerin dhe brezaret e tij.

[DYDRINAS]

Was There a Trojan War? Volume 57 Number 3, May/June 2004
by Manfred Korfmann

Despite assumptions to the contrary, archaeological work of the new Troy project has not been performed for the purpose of understanding Homer's Iliad or the Trojan War. For the past 16 years, more than 350 scholars, scientists, and technicians from nearly 20 countries have been collaborating on the excavations at the site in northwestern Turkey that began as an Early Bronze Age citadel in the third millennium B.C. and ended as a Byzantine settlement before being abandoned in A.D. 1350. However, as current director of the excavations, I am continually asked if Homer's Trojan War really happened.

The Size of Troy

Troy appears to have been destroyed around 1180 B.C. (this date corresponds to the end of our excavation of levels Troy VIi or VIIa), probably by a war the city lost. There is evidence of a conflagration, some skeletons, and heaps of sling bullets. People who have successfully defended their city would have gathered their sling bullets and put them away for another event, but a victorious conqueror would have done nothing with them. But this does not mean that the conflict was the war--even though ancient tradition usually places it around this time. After a transitional period of a few decades, a new population from the eastern Balkans or the northwestern Black Sea region evidently settled in the ruins of what was probably a much weakened city.

The main argument against associating these ruins with the great city described in the Iliad has been that Troy in the Late Bronze Age was a wholly insignificant town and not a place worth fighting over. Our new excavations and the progress of research in southeastern Europe has changed such views regarding Troy considerably.

It appears that this city was, by the standards of this region at that time, very large indeed, and most certainly of supraregional importance in controlling access from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea and from Asia Minor to southeast Europe and vice versa. Its citadel was unparalleled in the wider region and, as far as hitherto known, unmatched anywhere in southeastern Europe. Troy was also evidently attacked repeatedly and had to defend itself again and again, as indicated by repairs undertaken to the citadel's fortifications and efforts to enlarge and strengthen them.


A spectacular result of the new excavations has been the verification of the existence of a lower settlement from the seventeenth to the early twelfth centuries B.C. (Troy levels VI/VIIa) outside and south and east of the citadel. As magnetometer surveys and seven excavations undertaken since 1993 have shown, this lower city was surrounded at least in the thirteenth century by an impressive U-shaped fortification ditch, approximately eleven and a half feet wide and six and a half feet deep, hewn into the limestone bedrock. Conclusions about the existence and quality of buildings within the confines of the ditch have been drawn on the basis of several trial trenches and excavations, some of them covering a very large surface area. The layout of the city was confirmed by an intensive and systematic pottery survey in 2003. We have also discovered a cemetery outside the ditch to the south. The most recent excavations have determined that Troy, which now covers about seventy-five acres, is about fifteen times larger than previously thought.

The Setting of the Iliad

Homer took for granted that his audience knew a war had been fought for what was alternately called Ilios or Troy. The bard was mainly concerned with describing the wrath of Achilles and its consequences. He used Troy and the war as a poetic setting for a conflict between men and gods. From the archaeologist's point of view, however, the Iliad can be interpreted as a "setting" in an entirely different sense. One may see Homer or his informants as eyewitnesses to Troy and the landscape of Troy at the close of the eighth century B.C., the period when scholars generally agree Homer composed his epic.

Troy was largely a ruined site in Homer's day, but the remains of Troy VI/VIIa, both the citadel and the lower city, were still impressive. Contemporary audiences and later ones from the area around the city were supposed to be able to recognize the general outlines of places where the action happened from descriptive references in the Iliad. They could visualize it, for instance, whenever they climbed up a slope to a sanctuary in "holy Ilios." "Holy Ilios" is the most frequently repeated epithet in the Iliad, and one would expect to see a sacred building in such a place. We can make a convincing case for a sanctuary or sanctuaries, maybe in the form of a wooden building, from the early seventh century B.C. at the latest--roughly contemporary with Homer--on this site, which subsequently served as a cult center into the late Roman Empire. There is nothing in the archaeological record to contradict the assertion that Troy and the surrounding countryside formed the setting for Homer's Iliad in 700 B.C.


The Hittite Connection

Although Troy is in Anatolia, Carl Blegen, who directed excavations at the site in the 1930s, regarded Troy VI/VIIa as a Greek settlement. The idea of a Greek Troy, one that had also been entertained by Schliemann, became firmly established. These excavators had come from Greece to Troy, both literally and figuratively, and later returned to Greece, and were biased, most likely unconsciously, in their outlook. However, until the 1930s there was very little archaeologically within Anatolia that might have been compared with Troy, and certainly not in western Anatolia.

We know today, from our own excavations and even from earlier ones, that in all main respects, Bronze Age Troy had stronger ties with Anatolia than with the Aegean. We've learned this from the tons of local pottery and small finds, such as a seal with a local hieroglyphic inscription, as well as the overall settlement picture, mud-brick architecture, and cremation burials. Research by Anatolian specialists has shown that what we today call Troy was in the Late Bronze Age the kingdom of Wilusa, powerful enough to conclude treaties with the Hittite Empire; even the Egyptians seem to have been familiar with the city. Furthermore, according to Hittite records, there were political and military tensions around Troy precisely during the thirteenth and early twelfth centuries B.C.--the supposed time of Homer's Trojan War.

B]Was There A Trojan War?[/B]


On the basis of my years of experience and knowledge of Troy, I feel the question ought to be: "Why should the scholars who won't rule out a possible degree of historicity in the basic events in the Iliad have to defend their position?" In light of the remarkable amount of discovery that has taken place over the last ten to fifteen years, the onus to defend positions should now be on those who believe there is absolutely no historical association between what happened at Late Bronze Age Troy and the events in the Iliad. On what basis, for instance, are claims made that Troy in the thirteenth and twelfth centuries B.C. was a third-class city, unworthy of foreign invasion and ultimately of Homer's attention? We expect that doubters will finally take note of the new archaeological facts of the case and the findings of a really interdisciplinary approach to Troy research.

According to the archaeological and historical findings of the past decade especially, it is now more likely than not that there were several armed conflicts in and around Troy at the end of the Late Bronze Age. At present we do not know whether all or some of these conflicts were distilled in later memory into the "Trojan War" or whether among them there was an especially memorable, single "Trojan War." However, everything currently suggests that Homer should be taken seriously, that his story of a military conflict between Greeks and the inhabitants of Troy is based on a memory of historical events--whatever these may have been. If someone came up to me at the excavation one day and expressed his or her belief that the Trojan War did indeed happen here, my response as an archaeologist working at Troy would be: Why not?

Manfred Korfmann is director of excavations at Troy and a professor of archaeology at the University of Tübingen.

For more on the Troy excavations, visit the Troia Projekt homepage at www.uni-tuebingen.de/troia/eng/.
The preliminary reports from the excavations at Troy can be found in the journal Studia Troica: www.uni-tuebingen.de/troia/eng/sttroica.html.
For more on the controversy over the significance of Bronze Age Troy, visit www.uni-tuebingen.de/troia/eng/kontroverse.html.
See also "Troy's Fallen!" our review of the new movie from Warner Bros., and "Achilles at the Gates!" our interview with Age of Bronze comic-book artist Eric Shanower.