Dodona pjesë e misterit të trashëgimisë së vjedhur

[Baptist]

Eshte e keshillueshme te mos shperndahemi ne gjithe boten. Per me teper qe askush nuk mund te thote me saktesi se nga origjinoi kultura. E vertete qe gjetjet kulturore me te lashta jane ne Lindjen e Mesme, Afrike e Amerike, por a eshte kjo sepse ketu ishte epiqendra e kultures me te lashte njerezore, apo sepse gjetjet ne keto zona nuk jane perballur me modifikime ose luftera antikulturore historike?

Le te mos harrojme cfare i tha prifti i historise Egjiptiane, gjyshit te Solonit, qe Athinasit kane qene civilizim shume me i lashte se ai Egjiptian (nga i cili Egjiptianet kishin huajtur) por qe kane humbur memorjen nga permbytjet.

"Kroni i biri i Uranit mësoi njerzimin në bujqësi. Titanët ishin vellezerit e Kronit.....

Emni i Kronit e ka rrenjën ne gjuhen shqipe e do te thonë Mbret ose kryekunoruem. Per nderim të Kronit shqiptarët ngritën një kështjellë në maje të Gurit të Kuq, i cili gjindet në fushë të Finiqit, ku u ishte edhe qyteti i Kronit. Sot në atë vend asht fshati që quhet Krongji, në rrethinë të Delvinës. Permbi fshatin Krongji gjinden germadhat e motnueme të kohës pellazgve.
(Camet e quanin "muri pellazgeve"- shenim i Styx)

Zoti (Zeusi) pra mbas gojdhanës epirote nuk u lind në Dodonë në pallat të Kronit, por në Palavli të Delvinës ku ishin stanet (tebanet) e Kronit, e prej këndej u dergua nepër Butrint me lunder e në Kretë."

[Kreksi]

Mos eshte ky mbishkrimi i kerkuar i gjetur ne Dodon ?

[BARAT]

disa foto nga mali i Tomorrit, sa per ta bere pak me reale pamjen

[BARAT]

...ketu eshte edhe nje tjeter

[Darius]

Nganjehere i gjen gjerat midis vete shkrimtareve apo historianeve antik grek. Ne fakt gjerat aty kane qene dhe jane gjithmone po duhet te lexosh midis rrjeshtave.

Psh, sipas Homerit kemi kete percaktim:

Further, the Dodonaean Zeus is by the poet himself named 'Pelasgian': 'O Lord Zeus, Dodonaean, Pelasgian.' And many have called also the tribes of Epirus 'Pelasgian' because in their opinion the Pelasgi extended their rule even as far as that.

Dhe ne te njejten kohe sipas Herodotit kemi kete fragment:


Herodotus, The Histories: But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly
because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them.

Perseri nje tjeter fragment nga Herodoti:

Moreover it is true, as I think, of the Pelasgian race also [that they became Doric-speakers], that so far as it remained Barbarian
[not integrated in the Hellenic nation] it never made any great increase.
(Herodotus).

Ja dhe nje tjeter fragment perseri nga Herodoti (vdes kur citoj vete greket )

And of the natives of the various other towns which are really Pelasgian,
though they have lost the name,-if one must pronounce judging
by these, the Pelasgians used to speak a Barbarian language.

Dhe ky i fundit eshte fragmenti me i fuqishem i dale nga dora e Herodotit i cili ka qene Achaean (ka lindur ne qytetin Jonik te Halikarnit) dhe nuk e kuptonte gjuhen pellazge. Ja si shkruan ai:

"...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language... Even now the citizens of Creston and Plakia speak another language, different from their neighbours'... But what about Hellenic tribes, to my mind, they always spoke one language." (I, 57-58.)

Kaq per sot.

[Hyllien]

Mire tani, a jane Greket Helene ?
Herodoti thote nje genjeshter persa i perket gjuhes qe nuk avancoi. Nga e di Herodoti qe nuk avancoi kurre gjuhe pellazge perderisa ai nuk e dinte kete gjuhe ?

Si mendon ti Darius meqe solle citimet. Nuk te shkoi kjo nder mend ?

Herodotus, The Histories: But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly
because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them.

Moreover it is true, as I think, of the Pelasgian race also [that they became Doric-speakers], that so far as it remained Barbarian
[not integrated in the Hellenic nation] it never made any great increase.

"...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language... Even now the citizens of Creston and Plakia speak another language, different from their neighbours'... But what about Hellenic tribes, to my mind, they always spoke one language."





Ksaj i thone REKLAME... por nje reklame e qelbur dhe kaq ngushta ka qene i shkreit herodot ose ata qe e kan editu, saqe perseri nuk ja hiqnin dot lashtesine gjuhes Pellazge. E kam thene dhe here tjeter tek ajo tema per "rracizmin dhe jugosllavet qe esht hap me shkrimin e Stipcevicit". Shume shume mund te na nxjerrin te barabarte me paterica dhe me rrena, por kurre me prova. Jemi popull paraselenit, e kane thene dhe Arberit tane kete gje.

[Darius]

Pikerisht se me shkoi ne mendje prandaj e solla ate fragment ketu Genesis.

Ca akrobacirash jane bere me historine dhe si eshte pervetesuar e pranojne vete me komentet qe bejne. Pastaj Herodoti dihet qe ka qene toc per pune gjuhesh dhe dialektesh. Tani vetem ka mbetur te thuhet me ze te larte.

[Hyllien]

Vazhdojme me tutje. Cilin perkthim ke marre ? I referohem atyre kllapave katrore ?

na·tion (nā'shən) pronunciation
n.

1.
1. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
2. The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
2. The government of a sovereign state.
3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: “Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity” (Robert Conquest).
4.
1. A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
2. The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.


Tani, se me ngacmoi ajo fjala Hellenic Nation. Si eshte puna e ketij perkthimi ? Po deviojme pak nga tema, por mbase jo dhe aq, se eshte e rendesishme te percaktojme se kush qene Sellet ose Hellet dhe car qene.

Ateher si eshte e mundur qe Pellazget dhe Helenet jane bashke, por pastaj jane vec dhe njera pjese eshte barbare tjetra eshte NATION ?! Ngado qe ti kapesh keto citime jane fabrikime per ti nxjerre Helenet superior, por fabrikime foshnjore q e jane perdorur mjeshterisht per mijeravjet nga Qishat dhe institucionet e tjera akademike per te perhapur nje te vertete te rreme.


nga fjaloret etimologjike : Greko = Nga latinishtja graecus, nga gr. GRAIKOS, emri i banoreve rreth Dodones i aplikuar nga LATINET te gjithe HELENEVE.

Nga Frommer's Greece, 5th Edition
Frommers - 2003


"The Romans were also the first to refer to the hellenes, as Greeks, which is derived from the word graikos - the name of a prehistoric tribe"


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Vijme tek nej tjeter citim, kete ja dedikoj Baptistit:

Oneness of Politics and Religion nga Nicholas C. Eliopoulos

"The terms Graikos and Grakia(Greece and Greek are of matriarchal mythological origin, while the term Hellen, Hellas are of the same mythological origin but through patriarchal origin. The Romans acknowledged the Hellenes through Matriarchal identity "Graeci". The near east peoples generally acknowledged the Hellenes patriarchally but through the first-born son of Hellen, ION as Ionians"

Dmth ata nga Lindja, Ioneve i therrisnin Hellene, ndersa keta qe e kishin me afer i therrsnin GRA, GRARIA(GRA - kjo ngjan si shqip dhe ka dhe kuptim nese marrim si baze Eliopoulosin).

Ti Baptist si mendon ?

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Me tutje :

A classical dictionary of biography nga William Smith

"The Romans called the land of the Hellenes Graecia, whence we have derived the name of Greece. They probably gave the name to the country when they first became acquainted with the tribe of Graeci, who were said to be descendants of Graecus a son of Thessalus who appear to have dwelt in west Epirus"

"The Hellenes traced their origin to a mythical ancestor, Hellen from whose sons and grandsons whey were divided into 4 great tribes orians, Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians."

Kjo sikur e kundershton Elopoulosin per punen e matriarkatit dhe emrit Greqi ?
Nga ana tjeter kjo i nxjerr Greket dhe Helenet me prejardhje te ndryshme ?!!

Kolonite "Helene" ne Itali quhen Greke apo jo ? Kush e kolonizoi Italine qe ta marrim vesh ? Ky Grek me ngja emer i shpikur nga Romaket per te ngaterru origjinat e civilizimit te tyre. Sa here permendet Etruskia permendet Greqia.

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Me tutje:

A history of Greece, from the earliest times to the destruction of Corinth nga Leonhard Schmitz, Connop Thirlwall diku nga 1830 me duket.

" This land was called by its own sons Hellas, for which we have adpted the Roman name Greece(Graecia). The word Hellas that is, the land of the Helelnes, however, did not at all times apply to the same extent of country; according to some(Stefan Bizanti - shenim), it was originally the name of a town or district in the south of Thessaly, which afterwards called Phthiotis. From that territory the name is said to have gradually extended to the whole of Thessaly. But, according to others, the most ancient Greeks were the Selli(Selloi-ELLOI), who dwelt in and about Dodona, bearing the name Graeci(Graikoi). The Greeks themselves traced their national name to a mythical hero, Hellen, just as the Graeci derived theirs from a hero, Graecus, who is called a son of Thessalus, while Thessalus is said to have founded Dodona.
Another tradition(sa qejf kam kur keto tradita mbeten pa adrese reference - mire ne qe mezi ruajme ato pak burime per njerezit e thjeshte dhe e bejme nga halli por keta cfare ruajne- mbase madheshtine ? - shenim) represents a son of Graecus, as ruler of Thessaly, for the Graeci are said to have migrated from the country of the Molossians, in the neighbourhood of Dodona, to Thessaly, and to have there been called Hellenes. In later times, when the Hellenes spread farther south, the name Hellas embraced a wider extent of country, and might properly be considered to reach as far as the national features of the Hellenes..."


Kjo pjesa e fundit me ben corap fare. Por duhet ta lexojme me kujdes se cfare thuhet. Kush jane Sellet ?
Kush e ka themeluar Dodonen ?


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Nga Pausanias: Pausanias's Description of Greece: 6 vol. nga Pausanias dhe James George Frazer 1898 , keto jane thellime te Frazerit ne punen e Pausaniasit


" the whole Greek race were called Hellenes etc. In historical times the Greeks called themselves Hellenes and their country Hellas. But they had a tradition of a time when their national name was Graikoi, which is identical with the Latin Graeci and English Greeks. Thus Aristotle(Metereologica i.14, p.352) says that Deucalion's deluge took place "in ancient Greece, and ancient Greece is the district about Dodona and the Achelous. For there dwelt the Selli and the people who were then called Grikoi but are now called Hellenes", Stephanus Byzantius(me siper thashe qe me pelqejne kur gjerat mbeten pa adrese, atehere kjo reference e kesaj tradita qe ai flet siper qenka nga Stefan Bizanti qe i perket Shekullit 6 mbas Krishtit - duhet me germu 100 libra me gjet referenca te sakta) mentions a certain Graecus(Graikos), son of Thessalus, after whom the Greeks(Hellenes) were named Graikoi; and he adds that the mothers of the Greeks(Hellenes) were named Graikes by Alcman and by Sphocles in his lost play The Shepherds. The name Graikos occured in Callimachus, as we learn from the writer of Etymologicum Magnum, who tells us that the Greeks were called Graikoi either on account of their bravery or after a certain man Graikos. According to Apollodorus(i. 7.3) the change of the national name from Graikoi to Hellenes was made by Hellen, who called the people Hellenes after Himself(Hylli ?). [b] The Parian Chronicle assigns this change of name to the year 1521 BC(Frag. Historia Graeca ed. Muller).
The remarkable coincidence between this Greek tradition and the name by which the Greeks were always known to the Romans has been variously explained by modern writers. The most obvious explanation, adopted by Prof. Curtius(Griech Geschichte p. 93), is that when the forefathers of the Greeks and Romans dwelt together, the Greeks were actualyl called Greeks(Graikoi), and that this name was preserved by the Romans after it had been abandoned by the Greeks themselves.(????)
A different view is that of Victor Hehn (Kulturpflansen und Hauthiere. p.51) He supposes that the ancestors of the Greeks, after fighting their way through the mountains and forests of the wild Illyrian coast to Dodona(pra Epirus = Iliri - shenim), settled for a time in Epirusl that they had two national names, Graikoi and Hellenes and that while the latter spread eastward, the former(Graikoi) prevailed in the westand was transmitted across the sea to the Italians."

Me tutje po nga i njejti liber

" Hellas was originally the name of a town or district in Thessaly, and in this sense alone does it occur in Homer(Ebeling, Lexicon Homericum). The name Hellenes occurs only once in Homer(II. ii. 684), where it is applied, not to the Greeks in general, but only to the people who inhabited the Thessalian town or district of Hellas. Thucydides remarked (i. 3) that Homer never calls the Greeks Hellenes, but always Danai, Argives or Achaeans. The anme Panhallenes is found once in Homer (IL. ii.530) in the sense of "all the Greeks" but the line was rejected by Aristhacus(Ebling, Lexicon Homericum). The question whether the Homeric Hellas was a town or a district was debated in antiquity(Strabo ix. p431), and opinion is still divided on the subject/ The Roman geographers confined the name Hellas to the portion of Greece north of the Isthmus of Corinth."


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Mua me ngjan si emer i sajuar ky Graikoi, megjithate te shikojme dhe pak me tutje

The priestesses went barefoot, never washed their feet and slept on the bare ground, or as Homer has Achilles say,

"Lord of Dodona, King Zeus, God of Pelasgians, O God who dwells afar, who holds harsh wintery Dodona in your sway, where your interpreters the Selli dwell with feet like roots, unwashed, and make their beds on the ground..." The Iliad 16:127 (authors translation)

Keta Sellet, vec me qene Suliotet tane, qe njihen per trimerite e tyre ?
According to Babiniotis (1998), the name of "Souli" derives from an Albanian word meaning 'mountain summit'.[1] An older opinion,[citation needed] dating back to the poet Andreas Kalvos (1792 - 1869) links the name to that of the "Selloi", the ancient priests of Zeus at the sanctuary of Dodona. Kalvos used this association in his ode "Εἰς Σούλι" ('To Souli') written in honor of the Souliotes' heroic role in the struggle for Greek independence.


Akoma me interesante eshte se si na cajne derrasat sot keta njerez qe me nje vezhgim paraprak kane nje histori shume here me te ngaterruar se disa popuj qe sot vuajne mizorisht. Si eshte e mundur qe ky emer "Greqi" te kete marre dhene kete 50 vjecar(kur ne kishim te benim me Enver Hoxhen) dhe kurre mos jete shqyrtuar thellesisht nga "akademiket" tane si ceshtje ?


Si perfundim sot mund te them me plot goje se shpresoj qe te kemi MESUAR, ose me sakte CMESUAR disa MITE te krijuara per vendin tone fqinj. Kjo i shkon dhe plerave ne gazetat tona.

[Darius]

Ja ku e ke dhe nje fragment tjeter :

Zeus, king, lord of Dodona, Pelasgian,
you who live far off, ruling cold Dodona,
around whom live the Selli, your prophets,
with unwashed feet, who sleep upon the ground, Homer Iliad, Book 16

Ndersa per punen e Herodotit dhe aftesite e gjuheve kjo nuk eshte skarsitet vetem i atij por eshte i pranishem edhe ne pjeset e tjere sidomos tek orakujt grek te cilet konsultoheshin nga jo greke. Lexoni me vemendje kete pjese ketu:

Is it significant that the oracle of Ammon addresses Alexander in Greek (Rotolo, op. cit. (n.20) 396-7 and n.9 on Plut. Alex. 27) while Greek oracles in general (cf. the story of Mys, 8.135.2) speak only in Greek? Greek oracles were, of course, consulted by non-Greeks (e.g. Croesus in Book I), but there are not sufficient grounds to speculate the existence of a fully polyglot clergy (as does M.-F. Baslez, op. cit. (n.19) 60.) Croesus and the Hyperboreans are scarcely everyday barbarians; and Croesus at any rate was assisted in his consultation of Delphi by the Athenian Alcmeon, 6.125.2. Sophocles' description of the oak of Dodona as polyglossou, Trach. 1168, cannot be taken as evidence that oracles at Dodona were given in a range of voices (cf. Hdt 2.54-47).

Dhe nje tjeter fragment qe permend Selloit:

The Oracle at Dodona

The cult of Zeus at Dodona in Epirus, where there is evidence of religious activity from the 2nd millennium BC onward, centered around a sacred oak. When the Odyssey was composed (circa 750 BC), divination was done there by barefoot priests called Selloi, who lay on the ground and observed the rustling of the leaves and branches (Od. 14.326-7). By the time Herodotus wrote about Dodona, female priestesses called peleiades ("doves") had replaced the male priests.

Zeus' wife at Dodona was not Hera, but the goddess Dione — whose name is a feminine form of "Zeus". Her status as a titaness suggests to some that she may have been a more powerful pre-Hellenic deity, and perhaps the original occupant of the oracle.

Po postoj dhe foton qe ka vene Kreksi aty. E kam me te madhe dhe mund te dallohet me qarte.

Vazhdojme me tutje. Cilin perkthim ke marre ? I referohem atyre kllapave katrore ?

Po e postoj ketu si material qe ta shkarkosh sepse eshte i gjate dhe me interes.

[Zëu_s]

Do te perzihem edhe une pak ne kete teme, duke e siell nje tekst ne gjermanisht te sterrlexuar neper forume, pasiqe po me duket mua qe eshte me vend te sillet edhe nje here ai text pas shkrimit te Genesis-it per emrin Grek.
(sterrlexuar - kete fjale magjike e kopjova nga Genesis, ndoshta nuk ma zen per te madhe)

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Zeitlich paßt dazu, daß um 1000 v. Chr. die Illyrier aus Epirus über die Adria setzten und die Südostküste Italiens vom Garganus nach Süden in Besitz nahmen, was zuerst Heibig im berühmten Aufsatze ,Über die Herkunft der Japyger' im ,Hermes' 11, 1876, 257 ff. auf Grund der Übereinstimmungen in der Toponomastik dies- und jenseits der Adria erkannte, nachdem Mommsen in seinen ,Unteritalischen Dialekten', Leipzig 1850, S. 85 ff. dem Messapischen einen eigenen und unabhängigen Platz zugewiesen hatte. Es waren, von Norden nach Süden vorgehend, die Stämme der Daunier, Peuketier, Kalabrer, Japyger, die wir auch am Balkan nachweisen können, dazu Splitter von Dardanern und Chaonern. Dagegen legten sich die Messapier (d. i. ,die Siedler zwischen zwei Wassern', der Adria und dem Golf von Tarent), Sallentiner (die ,Meeranwohner') und Poediculi (,die Siedler am Fuße' des Apennin) diese Namen offenbar erst in der neuen Heimat zu. Sie waren es, die den Namen der Griechen von Dodona nach Italien hinüberbrachten, der später in römischem Munde als Grae-ci (mit dem ko-Suffix der italischen Völkernamen) zur Gesamtbezeichnung der Griechen wurde. Dazu stimmt die Tatsache, daß die ältesten griech. Kolonisten in Unter-Italien daselbst Messapier vorfanden, da sie die von diesen bereits besetzte italische Südostküste mieden. Auch manches illyr. Lehnwort dürfte den Römern von den Messa-piern zugekommen sein. Aber auch südlich von Epirus stießen die Illyrier nach Mittelgriechenland, wo die Akarnanen und Ätoler von den griech. Schriftstellern nicht als Vollgriechen angesehen werden, ja bis in den Peloponnes vor. R. v. Scala meinte in seiner Rektoratsrede ,Um-risse der ältesten Geschichte Europas', Innsbruck 1908, die Illyrier hatten sich im Süden sogar bis Kreta und nach der Besetzung Süd-Italiens bis Sizilien ausgebreitet.

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Kete text mund ta perktheni nga gjermanishtja ne anglisht ketu : Këtu

Une do te ndalem tek emri "Grek", qe siç thuhet ne kete text ai emer eshte vetem GRAE dhe jo me shum, kurse CI (ki) eshte nje ko-Sufix i gjuhes itale per emra popujsh.

Pra kete emrin GRAE e kan siellur fiset ilire nga Dodona ne Itali ku iu shtua nga Italianet (apo Latinet) prapashtesa CI (ki) qe me vone u be emri i te gjith "Grekve" (jo keta te sotmit, keta jan populli me i ri ne Europe, ose me mire te them ne Bote).
Ata ishin dikush tjeter, dhe une (pakica) them qe ata "popuj" qe e quanin veten Grek, Hellen, Emathiot/Makedon, Epirot etj. ishin ky popull qe e quan veten sot Shqiptar/Albanez, te tjeret (shumica) mendojne ndryshe, dhe pasiqe shumica duhet te kete te drejt, at'here une jam gabim.

Ju kerkoj ndjese per kete perseritje te vogel.