Harta historike te Shqiperise

[Darius]

Une besoj te jete Aestrai = Hylli. Hidhi nje sy tek harta e pare.

Ka mundesi. Si harte paraqet lumenjte me te medhenj. Do isha kurioz nese do gjeja dhe Sellen.

[dias10]

sipas Strabonit(nese e marrim te sakte() pershkrimi eshte ky: μετὰ δὲ τὸν Ῥιζονικὸν κόλπον Λίσσος ἐστὶ πόλις καὶ Ἀκρόλισσος καὶ Ἐπίδαμνος Κερκυραίων κτίσμα, ἡ νῦν Δυρράχιον ὁμωνύμως τῇ χερρονήσῳ λεγομένη ἐφ' ἧς ἵδρυται. εἶθ' ὁ Ἄψος ποταμὸς καὶ ὁ Ἄωος, ἐφ' ᾧ Ἀπολλωνία πόλις εὐνομωτάτη, κτίσμα Κορινθίων καὶ Κερκυραίων, τοῦ ποταμοῦ μὲν ἀπέχουσα σταδίους δέκα τῆς θαλάττης δὲ ἑξήκοντα. τὸν δ' Ἄωον Αἴαντα καλεῖ Ἑκαταῖος καί φησιν ἀπὸ τοῦ αὐτοῦ τόπου τοῦ περὶ Λάκμον, μᾶλλον δὲ τοῦ αὐτοῦ μυχοῦ, τόν τε Ἴναχον ῥεῖν εἰς Ἄργος πρὸς νότον καὶ τὸν Αἴαντα πρὸς ἑσπέραν καὶ πρὸς τὸν Ἀδρίαν. ἐν δὲ τῇ χώρᾳ τῶν Ἀπολλωνιατῶν καλεῖταί τι νυμφαῖον· πέτρα δ' ἐστὶ πῦρ ἀναδιδοῦσα, ὑπ' αὐτῇ δὲ κρῆναι ῥέουσι χλιαροῦ καὶ ἀσφάλτου, καιομένης, ὡς εἰκός, τῆς βώλου τῆς ἀσφαλτίτιδος· μέταλλον δ' αὐτῆς ἔστι πλησίον ἐπὶ λόφου· τὸ δὲ τμηθὲν ἐκπληροῦται πάλιν τῷ χρόνῳ, τῆς ἐγχωννυμένης εἰς τὰ ὀρύγματα γῆς μεταβαλλούσης εἰς ἄσφαλτον, ὥς φησι Ποσειδώνιος. λέγει δ' ἐκεῖνος καὶ τὴν ἀμπελῖτιν γῆν ἀσφαλτώδη τὴν ἐν Σελευκείᾳ τῇ Πιερίᾳ μεταλλευομένην ἄκος τῆς φθειριώσης ἀμπέλου· χρισθεῖσαν γὰρ μετ' ἐλαίου φθείρειν τὸ θηρίον πρὶν ἐπὶ τοὺς βλαστοὺς τῆς ῥίζης ἀναβῆναι· τοιαύτην δ' εὑρεθῆναι καὶ ἐν Ῥόδῳ πρυτανεύοντος αὐτοῦ, πλείονος δ' ἐλαίου δεῖσθαι. μετὰ δ' Ἀπολλωνίαν Βυλλιακὴ καὶ Ὠρικὸν καὶ τὸ ἐπίνειον αὐτοῦ ὁ Πάνορμος καὶ τὰ Κεραύνια ὄρη, ἡ ἀρχὴ τοῦ στόματος τοῦ Ἰονίου κόλπου καὶ τοῦ Ἀδρίου. After the Rhizonic Gulf comes the city of Lissus, {326} and Acrolissus, {327} and Epidamnus, {328} founded by the Corcyraeans, which is now called Dyrrachium, like the peninsula on which it is situated. Then comes the Apsus {329} River; and then the Aoüs, {330} on which is situated Apollonia, {331} an exceedingly well-governed city, founded by the Corinthians and the Corcyraeans, and ten stadia distant from the river and sixty from the sea. The Aoüs is called “Aeas “ {332} by Hecataeus, who says that both the Inachus and the Aeas flow from the same place, the region of Lacmus, {333} or rather from the same subterranean recess, the former towards the south into Argos and the latter towards the west and towards the Adrias. In the country of the Apolloniates is a place called Nymphaeum; it is a rock that gives forth fire; and beneath it flow springs of warm water and asphalt--probably because the clods of asphalt in the earth are burned by the fire. And near by, on a hill, is a mine of asphalt; and the part that is trenched is filled up again in the course of time, since, as Poseidonius says, the earth that is poured into the trenches changes to asphalt. He also speaks of the asphaltic vine-earth which is mined at the Pierian Seleuceia {334} as a cure for the infested vine; for, he says, if it is smeared on together with olive oil, it kills the insects {335} before they can mount the sprouts of the roots; {336} and, he adds, earth of this sort was also discovered in Rhodes when he was in office there as Prytanis, {337} but it required more olive oil. After Apollonia comes Bylliaca, {338} and Oricum {339} and its seaport Panormus, and the Ceraunian Mountains, where the mouth of the Ionian Gulf {340} and the Adrias begins.

[Baptist]

Strabo eshte referenca ime e preferuar, por fatkeqesisht edhe e grekeve. Sic e ke vene ne pah , ne ate botim Strabo e ka "gabim" sepse vendos "Apsus" direkt mbi Aoos. Keshtu e vendos edhe akahemia jone dhe ajo greke.

Nje harte e nje autori tjeter te lashte po ashtu kishte dy ishuj. U ble per nje cmim marramendes 5 vjet me pare.

[Baptist]

In the early church of Alexandria, the Greek word "LAOUS" was used sometimes in its inclusive sense meaning the Church of God, including clergymen, monks and laymen, and in other times in the limited sense meaning the laymen
alone.

Ky eshte Apsus. Pra Apsus= Njerez te Zotit, prifterinj.

Citim nga Eratosteni: Qyteti ..Epidamni mbi gadishullin e quajtur Dyrrah. Pastaj vijne lumejt Dril dhe Lao. Prane tyre jane vendosur Kadmi dhe Harmonia. Gjithashtu quheshin Dyrrahenoi…"

[dias10]

Strabo eshte referenca ime e preferuar, por fatkeqesisht edhe e grekeve. Sic e ke vene ne pah , ne ate botim Strabo e ka "gabim" sepse vendos "Apsus" direkt mbi Aoos. Keshtu e vendos edhe akahemia jone dhe ajo greke.

Nje harte e nje autori tjeter te lashte po ashtu kishte dy ishuj. U ble per nje cmim marramendes 5 vjet me pare.

ok ja ku eshte Pseudo-Skylax:
Skylax is a the earliest, 6th B.C.E and the latest, mid-4th century
B.C.E.

22. ILLYRIOI. And after Libyrnians are the Illyrian nation, and the
Illyrians live along beside the sea as far as Chaonia by Kerkyra, the island
of Alkinoös. And there is a Hellenic city here, which has the name
Herakleia, with a harbour. The barbarians called Lotus-eaters are the
following: Hierastamnai, Boulinoi (Hyllinoi), coterminous with Boulinoi the
Hylloi. And these say Hyllos son of Herakles settled them: and they are
barbarians. And they occupy a peninsula a little lesser than the
Peloponnese. And from peninsula parastonion* is upright: Boulinoi live
beside this. And Boulinoi are an Illyric nation. And the coastal voyage is
of the territory of Boulinoi of a long day up to Nestos river.

23. NESTIANS. And from Nestou the voyage is gulf-shaped. And all this gulf
is called Manios. And the coastal voyage is of one day. And there are in
this gulf islands, Proteras, Krateiai, Olynta. And these from one another
are distant 2 stades or a little more, by Pharos and Issa. For here is New
Pharos, a Hellenic island, and Issa island, and these are Hellenic cities.
Before sailing along-the-coast up to the Naron river, much territory extends
very much into the sea. And there is an island near the coastal territory,
which has the name Melite [Malta], and another island near this, which has
the name Kerkyra the Black: and this island runs out very much with one of
the promontories from the coastal territory, and with the other promontory
it comes down to the Naron river. And from Melite it is distant 20 stades,
and from the coastal territory it is distant 8 stades.

24. MANIANS. And from Nestians is the Naron river: and the voyage into the
Narona is not narrow: and even a trireme voyages into it, and boats into the
upper trading-town, being distant from the sea 80 stades. And these are
Illyrian by nation, the Manians. And there is a lake inland from the
trading-town, a great one, and the lake extends to Autariatai, an Illyric
nation. And there is an island in the lake of 120 stades: and this island is
very much well farmed. And from this lake the Naron river flows. And from
the Naron up to the Arion river is a day’s voyage: and from the Arion river
a voyage of a day’s half: and Kadmos’s and Harmonia’s stones are here, and a
sanctuary [not] far from the Rhizous river. And from the Rhizous river to
Bouthoë the voyage ** and the trading-town.

25. ENCHELEIS. A nation of Illyrians are the Encheleis, adjoining the
Rhizous. And out of Bouthoë to Epidamnos, Hellenic city, voyage of a day and
a night, and a road of three days.

26. TAULANTIOI. And of the Taulantians is the Illyric nation, in which
Epidamnos is, and a river flows beside the city which has the name Palamnos.
And out of Epidamnos to Apollonia, a Hellenic city, is a road of two days.
And Apollonia is distant from the sea 50 stades, and the river Aias flows
beside the city. And from Apollonia into Amantia is 320 stades. And the Aias
river from the Pindos Mountain flows beside Apollonia. [And] towards
[Amantia] inland, somewhat into the Ionian gulf is Orikos. It comes down
from Orikia to the sea 90 stades, and from Amantia 60 stades. Sharing a
border with all these in the interior are Atintanes above Orikia and Karia*
as far as Dodonia. And in the Kestris territory is said to be a pedion, name
Erytheia. Here Geryones is said to come and pasture his oxen. By these
places are the Keraunian mountains in Epeiros, and there is an island beside
these places, a small one, which has the name Sason. From here to Orikos
city is a coastal voyage of a day’s third part.

27. [O RIKOI. And the Orikoi occupy [. . .] of the Amanian territory.] And
the [Amantians], from Boulinoi as far as here, are Illyrians. And the mouth
of the Ionian gulf is from Keraunian mountains as far as cape Iapygia. And
up to Hydroëis city in Iapygia from the Keraunian mountains, the stades of
the voyage across are about 500, [which] is the mouth of the gulf: and the
places inside are the Ionian gulf. There are many harbours in the Adriatic:
and the same thing is the Adriatic and the Ionian.

28. CHAONES. [U]And after Illyrians, Chaonians. And Chaonia has good
harbours: and the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of
Chaonia is a half of a day.

29. KORKYRA. And by Chaonia is an island, Korkyra, and a Hellenic city in
it, having three harbours by the city: of these the one is enclosed. And
Korkyra belongs also to Thesprotia more than Chaonia. And I return again
onto the mainland, whence I turned aside.

30. THESPROTIANS. And after Chaonia are the Thesprotian nation. And these
too live in villages: and this territory also has good harbours. Here is a
harbour, which has name Elaia. Into this the harbour the river Acheron
emits: and there is lake Acherousia, out of which the Acheron fiver flows.
And the coastal voyage of Thesprotias is a half of a day.

31. KASSOPIANS. And after Thesprotia is the nation Kassopia. And these too
live in villages. And these live beside as far as into the Anaktoric gulf.
And the coastal voyage of the Kassopians’ territory is a half of a day; and
the Anaktoric gulf is a little less from its mouth as far as into the inner
end, 120 stades. And the mouth has width 4 stades.

32. MOLOTTIA(MOLOSSIA). And after Kassopia are the Molottian nation. And
these live in villages: and they come down only a little here to the sea,
and largely into the interior. And the coastal voyage of Molottian territory
is of 40 stades.

[Baptist]

In the early church of Alexandria, the Greek word "LAOUS" was used sometimes in its inclusive sense meaning the Church of God, including clergymen, monks and laymen, and in other times in the limited sense meaning the laymen
alone.

Ky eshte Apsus. Pra Apsus= Njerez te Zotit, prifterinj.

Citim nga Eratosteni: Qyteti ..Epidamni mbi gadishullin e quajtur Dyrrah. Pastaj vijne lumejt Dril dhe Lao. Prane tyre jane vendosur Kadmi dhe Harmonia. Gjithashtu quheshin Dyrrahenoi…"

Cabej sikur na i ben Enkelenoi, gje qe perputhet me pozicionin e Elimeve. Pra Elimet na dalin populli Ilir i Kadmit dhe Harmonise, per me shume na dalin edhe Dyrrahenoi (ndryshe nga pellitjet akademike greke shqiptare qe Durresi eshte koloni greke).

Shkojme me tej. Lumi i dyte poshte Durresit (pas Dril) eshte Laos, sipas citimit te Erastotenit. Kjo perputhet me harten Culvert qe ka Apsus/Laos ne vend te Genesus. Thene ndryshe, Genesus i verte eshte Semani, dhe jo Shkumbini.

Grekte kane oreks te madh.

[dias10]

Mor po greqia ku eshte, pa mire??

[dias10]

Ja ku eshte e gjeta. Greket shtrihen me 1867 ne gjithe ....Peloponezin.



E cuditshme se sipas kesaj harte dhe Peloponezi banohet vetem prej ...shqiptareve:

[Baptist]

Ishin me pushime verore ne Siri.

[Darius]

Lol Styx. Ke harruar Libine, Etiopine, Mongoline dhe ndonje vend tjeter verdhacuko-zezako-evgjit.

[klaus fisher]

ai ishulli prane Sazanit me duket si pjese e gadishullit te Karaburunit

[Baptist]

Keshtu mendova e edhe une ne fillim. Mirepo po te shikosh hartene Merkatorit 1606, perseri ke dy ishuj. Pe rme shume Karaburumi eshte shume me i gjere (jo si nje rryp qe eshte sot) dhe gjiri ujor (po ne harten e merkatorit eshte po as i thelle) ne mos me shume se ai sot.

Me sa duket nje pjese e Karaburunit, ana lindore duhet te jete fundosur, se bashku me nje pjese te ishullit ne veri te Sazanit. Ndersa toka mund te jete ngritur mbi uje dhe bashkuar me pjesen e mbeture te ishullit. Por, eksiston edhe probabiliteti me i madh qe i tere ishulli verior bashle me anen Lindore te Karaburunit jane perpire nga deti, i cili ne kohen e Merkatorit quhej Deti Mesdhe (jo Jon), ndersa ai Adriatik, Deti Veneteve.

Me pak fjale Durresi ishte ne Detin e Veneteve.

[land]

harte origjinale e vitit 1887
This lovely map is by Edward Stanford, from the "London Atlas of Universal Geography" published in London, 1887.

Size: The map measures approx 29" x 22", (74 cm x 56 cm).

Description: This is an original antique map which is printed on one side only. This map is a genuine antique, 121 years old.




Condition: The map is in good condition except for two tears with no loss.

harta tjeter

Grece under theban headship 362 BC

[Darius]

Keshtu mendova e edhe une ne fillim. Mirepo po te shikosh hartene Merkatorit 1606, perseri ke dy ishuj. Pe rme shume Karaburumi eshte shume me i gjere (jo si nje rryp qe eshte sot) dhe gjiri ujor (po ne harten e merkatorit eshte po as i thelle) ne mos me shume se ai sot.

Qe nga koha qe Merkator vizatoi hartat e tij ose me sakte shume kohe para Merkatorit bregdeti shqiptar ka mbetur i njejte. Kjo eshte nje tjeter prove e forte qe Merkator ka perdorur burime shume te lashta ne mos kopje te hartave shume te vjetra te vizatuara nga te tjere. Kjo eshte dhe epiqendra e debatit mbi hartaberesit dhe hartakopjuesit duke filluar qe me Piri Reis, Merkator dhe Buache, Finaeus e te tjere.

Styx e kuptova une gabim apo kjo eshte eshte bere nga Merkator? Po te jete keshtu atehere ka nje vlere te jashtezakonshme pasi jane shume te rralla hartat origjinale te mbetura prej tij.

[Bizantin]

Është mendimi im (vetëm) apo duket qartë se jugu i Italisë (cepi i çizmes) ka qënë i lidhur me karaburunin?

Mos vallë kjo lidhet drejtpërdrejt me vendbanimin e mesapëve? Vallë mesapët shkuan në itali duke lundruar apo nga toka?

Po me Atlantidën si mund të lidhet?

[land]

Messapo/Japige/Ylliro/Shqiptare,kane bere lufte me gerqit e Taranto-s.

indovina un po chi ha vinto?!

[Baptist]

Qe nga koha qe Merkator vizatoi hartat e tij ose me sakte shume kohe para Merkatorit bregdeti shqiptar ka mbetur i njejte. Kjo eshte nje tjeter prove e forte qe Merkator ka perdorur burime shume te lashta ne mos kopje te hartave shume te vjetra te vizatuara nga te tjere. Kjo eshte dhe epiqendra e debatit mbi hartaberesit dhe hartakopjuesit duke filluar qe me Piri Reis, Merkator dhe Buache, Finaeus e te tjere.

Styx e kuptova une gabim apo kjo eshte eshte bere nga Merkator? Po te jete keshtu atehere ka nje vlere te jashtezakonshme pasi jane shume te rralla hartat origjinale te mbetura prej tij.

E kuptove drejt.

Harta te ashtuquajtura besnike origjinale te Merkatorit kam blere disa. Kjo per te cilen flas, nje harte origjinale e tij ne 1606 eshte ndryshe. Nuk mund ta konceptoj se perse i njejti autor ben nje harte me dy ishuj dhe tjetren me nje. Mbase qisha mund te na ndihmoje ketu.

Do ishte ide shume e mire qe te mblidhnim fonde per te blere relike te kesaj nature per shfrytezim kolektiv, por problemi edhe ketu shtrohet se kush do te jete guvernanca dhe kush ekszekutuesit e kesaj pasurie kombetare. Pune dreqi te besh shtet jashte shtetit, te tille qe te mos bleje rolex ne vend te hartave.

[Baptist]

Keshtu mendova e edhe une ne fillim. Mirepo po te shikosh hartene Merkatorit 1606, perseri ke dy ishuj. Pe rme shume Karaburumi eshte shume me i gjere (jo si nje rryp qe eshte sot) dhe gjiri ujor (po ne harten e merkatorit eshte po as i thelle) ne mos me shume se ai sot.

Me sa duket nje pjese e Karaburunit, ana lindore duhet te jete fundosur, se bashku me nje pjese te ishullit ne veri te Sazanit. Ndersa toka mund te jete ngritur mbi uje dhe bashkuar me pjesen e mbeture te ishullit. Por, eksiston edhe probabiliteti me i madh qe i tere ishulli verior bashle me anen Lindore te Karaburunit jane perpire nga deti, i cili ne kohen e Merkatorit quhej Deti Mesdhe (jo Jon), ndersa ai Adriatik, Deti Veneteve.

Me pak fjale Durresi ishte ne Detin e Veneteve.

Ja ku eshte nje miniature e hartes ne fjale. Pardon per cilesine e saj. Sidoqofte detajet per te cilat kam shkruar me lart dallohen qarte. Do vendos edhe nje harte tjeter te ashtuajtur Merkator, qe presupozohet te jete kopje e kesaj ne link. E dyta dallohet per mungese detajesh dhe ndryshime "minore" si pershembull mungesa e nje apo dy ishujve.

http://www.freewebs.com/styx49/apps/...hotoID=8838631

[Darius]

Harta qe paraqitet ne link te vendosur nga Styx

[Darius]

Është mendimi im (vetëm) apo duket qartë se jugu i Italisë (cepi i çizmes) ka qënë i lidhur me karaburunin?

Mos vallë kjo lidhet drejtpërdrejt me vendbanimin e mesapëve? Vallë mesapët shkuan në itali duke lundruar apo nga toka?

Po me Atlantidën si mund të lidhet?

Vazhdoj ti stresoj pikes se vjetersise se madhe te burimeve te perdorura nga Merkator ne vizatimin e hartave te tij. Ndersa Atlantida per mua ketu eshte komplet jashte vendit dhe mbase (pa profetizuar asgje) shpejt do kemi te dhena shume te forta per vendnodhjen e sakte te saj. Le te presim...