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  1. #201
    .... ...
    Anėtarėsuar
    30-01-2005
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    4,049

    Cfare ndodhi me lobin izraelian per paqe?

    What happend to the Israeli peace lobby?

    The BBC News website is publishing a series of articles about the attempts to achieve peace in the Middle East and the main obstacles. Matthew Price considers what has happened to the Israeli peace movement.

    It was the hottest night of the year so far. Cars were overheating left, right and centre, conked out on the hard shoulder of the highway running through Tel Aviv.
    There was traffic chaos. Roads were sealed off, the police redirecting cars away from Rabin Square in the centre, as tens of thousands made their way on foot for a mass rally that was taking place.
    There was revolution in the air, a popular protest. It felt like the mid-1990s when thousands would come together in Rabin Square in support of the peace process.

    But this was May 2007, and the rally was not about pushing for peace. It was about pushing out an Israeli leadership which the public has decided failed at war.

    In the end - even by conservative estimates - more than 100,000 turned up at the rally. The sort of figures peace rallies here could once count on attracting.

    Former glories

    "You used to get tens of thousands," Yehudit Elkana says. She's spent most of her adult life working for Israeli organisations which campaign for peace.
    "Now if you can get 1,500 people for a demonstration you say, 'Wow! It's great'."
    "There had always been radical groups on the left in Israel, but the Israeli peace movement really started to grow in the late 1980s," says Judith Green, an academic and peace activist.
    Opposition to the first Lebanon war, which started in 1982, was one catalyst for the left. The other was the first Palestinian uprising which started in 1988.
    "That was when parts of Israeli society really started to recognise the problems Palestinians were facing because of the occupation," says Ms Green.

    The political environment in the 1990s helped too. The Oslo process which was supposed to lead to the creation of two states, living sides by side in peace, helped energise the left.
    Judith Green says the 1990s were a time of optimism.
    "We held big events which were important as we tried to get public momentum behind the peace process. But by 2001, people became depressed because of the chaos on the Palestinian side."

    Feeling of rejection

    That was the time of the second Palestinian uprising. A time of suicide bombs on the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. A time when many Israelis began to think peace with the Palestinians might not be achievable.
    The general feeling was - and to large extent still is - that the Palestinians rejected Israel's moves towards peace during the Oslo years.
    "There is hypocrisy among Israelis about what a peace movement and a peace process is," says Sarit Michaeli from the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.
    "What we felt was great progress [during the Oslo process]. This is not really what the Palestinians experienced."
    "Many Israelis feel and felt that the Palestinians should do certain things under Oslo, things that might risk internal conflict for instance. But Israelis weren't prepared to accept that there are big problems for the Palestinians that Israel is contributing to. We're not willing to put ourselves in anyone else's shoes."
    The result was that as the Oslo process began to unravel, many Israelis lost faith that large scale public demonstrations of support for the peace movement could achieve anything.

    Fear and distrust

    "People are tired," says Yehudit Elkana. "They don't believe any more in the possibilities of peace. And worse, since the terror attacks people became afraid and distrustful of the intentions of the Palestinians."

    Does she think the peace movement achieved anything?

    "No. It's too early to evaluate how much the Israeli peace movement has contributed to the creation of two states - which is what the solution will be in the end."
    Sitting in her garden, with the sound of the call to prayer drifting up from the valley below, Judith Green is reminded every day of how close Israelis and Palestinians live to one another.
    "We can't get together any more though," she says. "We can't go to their areas, they can't come here."
    She also says there's a financial problem.
    "Oslo led to an increase in funding from international groups. Now, Oslo has collapsed so the funding has collapsed."
    But she rejects the idea that the Israeli peace movement is dead.
    "It is active, but not on a public level. Now various groups specialise in human rights, health care, civil rights.
    "There are groups against house demolitions, checkpoints, and settlements. There are lots of organisations working intensively."

  2. #202
    zhapik buster Maska e drity
    Anėtarėsuar
    11-01-2006
    Postime
    1,237
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga Zarathustra.
    Mjaft u solidarizuam me me bythegrisurit dhe injorantet arabo-magjype te arabise.
    lol, po me kujton nje president amerikan i cili tha;

    [Jews and Arabs should settle their differences] like good Christians
    When you are in it up to your ears, keep your mouth shut.

  3. #203
    Bogdan Chmielnicki Maska e antares
    Anėtarėsuar
    19-08-2004
    Vendndodhja
    Ukraine
    Postime
    880
    Replika e Lioness ishte interesante, por diku e prishi (gelltiti nje luge corbe)........
    ++++++++++++++
    por me eksperte ne fushe, si Bernard Lewis, Dershowitz
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    Po ti kishte shtuar edhe ca "figura" si Frumm, Perle, Faith, Wolfowic e ndonje bashkekombas i tyre qe s'po me kujtohet do te behej e plote tabloja se c'eksperte jane keta......
    Dershowici akoma po flet me vehte pas nje perplasjeje qe pati me bashkekombasin e tij Finkelshtajn!
    "The United States appear to be destined by Providence to plague America with misery in the name of liberty"
    -Simón Bolķvar

  4. #204
    Nderi i Forumit Maska e Acid_Burn
    Anėtarėsuar
    02-05-2002
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    1,028
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga Zarathustra.
    Pse ne valle solidarizohemi gjithmone me viktimen. .
    Po pse me ke duhet te solidarizohemi me vrasesit? Ti dukesh qe nuk e di se cfare do te thote fjala 'viktime'. Apo mania per te shkruar me fjale te medha pa ja ditur kuptimin?
    RIPPR

  5. #205
    Nderi i Forumit Maska e Acid_Burn
    Anėtarėsuar
    02-05-2002
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    1,028
    Ketu ne kete teme njeri i bie gozhdes tjetri patkoit. Hamasi dhe te gjitha forcat politike Palestineze kerkojne zbatimin e resolutes 465 e cila thote:

    UN Resolution 465



    1.Affirming once more that the fourth Geneva convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war of 12 August 1949 is applicable to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem.


    2.Determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure of status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of setting parts of its population and new Immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the fourth Geneva convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East.


    3.Strongly deplores the continuation and persistence of Israel in pursuing those policies and practices and calls upon the government and people of Israel to rescind those measures, to dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.


    4.Calls upon all states not to provide Israel with any assistance to be used specifically in connection with settlements in the Occupied Territories.


    5.Requests the commission to continue to examine the situation relating to the settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, to investigate the reported serious depletion of natural resources, particularly the water resources, with a view to ensuring the protection of those important natural resources of the territories under occupation, and keep under close scrutiny the implementation of the present resolution.


    Po Izraeli 'demokratik' c'thote ne lidhje me kete dhe sa eshte dakort ta zbatoje?
    RIPPR

  6. #206
    Perjashtuar
    Anėtarėsuar
    11-04-2003
    Postime
    1,348
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga Acid_Burn
    Po pse me ke duhet te solidarizohemi me vrasesit? Ti dukesh qe nuk e di se cfare do te thote fjala 'viktime'. Apo mania per te shkruar me fjale te medha pa ja ditur kuptimin?

    Pikerisht. Sic e thashe drejtesia e tyre (palestinezeve) eshte edhe e jotja. Vrasesi per ta eshte vrases per ty. Viktima me te fuqishmin e konsideron gjithmone amoral, - vrases, hileqar, represiv.

    Kjo varet nga ty, dhe nga integrimi yt. A jane vlerat e tua, njesoj si ato te palestinezeve? Me sa shof, po. Por shqiptaret me sa di une kerkojne te integrohen ne nje shoqeri alla-izrael, pra perendimore, te hapur, demokratike dhe te fuqishme. Une nuk njoh, ose di qe jane te paket shqiptaret qe kerkojne te integrohen ne Palestine.

    Shko meso historine njehere e pastaj ne kopjo si papagall rezuluta qe Palestina nuk i gezon sepse kerkon shkaterrimin e entitetit Izraelit. Izraeli u sulmua nga 6 ushtri arabe ne 1967 qe kerkonin zhdukjen e tij, askujt si erdhi keq, dhe Izraeli i doli vet zot vetes. Sa here do ti qe te sulmohet Izraeli nga arabet qe ketij te fundit ti linde e drejta te pushtoje e te mbaje nen kontroll zonat nga te cilat keto sulme iniciojne. Izraeli ia plotesoi 90% te kerkesave ne 2000 por Arafati nuk pranoi. Mire tu behet.

    Me respekt ia heq kapelen Izraelit, se ishte komb vetem 20 vjecar dhe u organizua ne menyre mbreselenese, nje shtet i disiplinuar dhe teper i mencur. Beri aleancat e duhura, mbajti lidhjet e duhura, dhe arriti te mbijetoje mes popujve dhe mentaliteteve barbare qe e rrethojne. Sikur ne e ishim vetem sa 1/10 e tyre, sot do ishim diku tjeter.

  7. #207
    Nderi i Forumit Maska e Acid_Burn
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    02-05-2002
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    1,028
    Degjo ti shoqja Zare!

    Dridhe ne diskoteke sa te duash edhe kur je vetem dridhe ama kur vjen ketu mbaje drejt. Ti ke bere nje pyetje retorike ke thene :'Pse ne valle solidarizohemi gjithmone me viktimen' Ashtu si e ke perdorur ti i bie qe viktima te jete Palestina. Ti nocionin 'viktime' e ke perdorur ne stillin 'alla rruga' ashtu si ke degjuar dike te therrase dike tjeter 'viktime' ne forme percmimi. Prandaj te thashe qe fjalen 'viktime' e ke perdorur kot.

    Sa i perket rezolutes se Kombeve te Bashkuara eshte ne fuqi sot e kesaj dite dhe Izraeli nuk do ta zbatoje. Me kete tregon qe eshte shembull apo fanar ndricues i demokracise ne rajon.

    Une historine e kam lexuar. Edhe ti e ke lexuar. Nese deshiron qe te bashkbisedojme ne lidhje me kete problem do ta lexojme se bashku perseri. Nuk ka pse te hapesh kaq shume e t'i heqesh kapelen apo ..... izraelit.

    Une kam sjelle ketu nje rezolute te Kombeve te Bashkuara e cila duhet te sherbeje si pike orientimi per bashkbisedimin tone. Ti me flet per luften "6 diteshe" te 1967 dhe thua 6 ushtri arabe e sulmuan Izraelin. Do te lutesha t'i permendje keto te fundit cilat na paskan qene?
    RIPPR

  8. #208
    zhapik buster Maska e drity
    Anėtarėsuar
    11-01-2006
    Postime
    1,237
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga Zarathustra.
    Viktima me te fuqishmin e konsideron gjithmone amoral, - vrases, hileqar, represiv.
    Ta kane shtruar pyetjen dhe me pare.

    Cili eshte qendrimi yt ne lidhje me 6mil ēifutet e zhdukur gjate LIIB?
    When you are in it up to your ears, keep your mouth shut.

  9. #209
    .... ...
    Anėtarėsuar
    30-01-2005
    Postime
    4,049
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga drity
    Ta kane shtruar pyetjen dhe me pare.

    Cili eshte qendrimi yt ne lidhje me 6mil ēifutet e zhdukur gjate LIIB?
    Drity, kjo tema eshte Izrael-Palestine, pak a shume sot, (se ka plot per te shkruar) duke diskutuar gjithashtu kushtet historike te kesaj situate. Pjese e ketyre kushteve ishte dhe Holocaust, por ka tema te posatcme tek forumi i Historise ku eshte diskutuar.

    Nga ana tjeter, vazhdojne luftimet Hamas-Fatah ne Gaza.

  10. #210
    Nderi i Forumit Maska e Acid_Burn
    Anėtarėsuar
    02-05-2002
    Postime
    1,028
    Shoqja Luanesha !

    "Pak a shume sot" eshte si "bjeri t'i bim". Nese e ke vene re kjo teme nuk ka aspak nje agjende mbi te cilen te mbeshtetet diskutimi. Nese do vazhdohet te diskutohet me emocione dmth une mbroj palestinezet se jane muslimane dhe ti mbron izraelitet se urren Islamin, nuk do mundemi asnjehere te kuptojme problemet e rajonit e aq me pak te vijme ne ndonje konkluzion politik edhe pse ky i fundit do mbetet ketu ne forum.

    Te diskutosh mbi nje nga konfliktet me te vjetra ne bote duhet qe patjeter diskutimin ta mbeshtetesh ne nje platforme asnjanese. Per mendimin tim, mendim ky i shumices se kancelarive boterore problemi duhet te diskutohet ne kuader te rezolutave te Kombeve te Bashkuara te cilat duhet te pranohen nga te gjithe ne qe debatojme si etalon per analizimin e problemit.

    Te anuarit emocionalisht nga njera ane apo nga tjetra jo vetem qe do ja humbase vleren debatit, por do devijoje edhe lexuesin (si psh deklaratat e shokut Zari apo shoqes Zare si kam qef ta therras une duke pasur ne mendje "Gay Science" te Nices.)

    Te pretendosh se ke lexuar historine dhe te thuash qe 6 shtete arabe sulmuan Izraelin ne '67 kur ne te vertete numri 6 lidhet me kohezgjatjen e luftes e cila njihet boterisht si 'lufta 6 diteshe', nderkohe qe shtetet arabe qe moren pjese ne kete lufte ishin: Egjipti, Siria dhe Jordania, flet per rrumpallnajen e disave ne te tilla diskutime.

    Nga ana tjeter te quash Izraelin komb 20 vjecar (48 - 67) kur ne te vertet kombi Izraelit eshte me teper se 2000 vjet i vjeter flet qe nuk e di dallimin mes shtetit dhe kombit.

    Pa dashur te harxhoj kohe tu mesoj disave konceptet elementare e perseris qe ky debat duhet te kete nje platforme ku te mbeshtetet e te trajtoje problemet prej 1948 e deri me sot.

    apo jo Luanesha ?
    RIPPR

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