Skenderbeu dhe Serbet!

[fejer_nagy]

Iliri i madh, je duke e 'masakruar' forumin me keto qe ke postuar. Me me ngadale, plako!

Qe te hy ne teme, Skenderbeu sipas shumices se historianeve e ka pasur nenen e tij (Vojsaven) nga nje familje feudale sllave, nga Pollogu i Maqedonise. Nuk dihet me siguri se a ka qene serbe, sic pretendojne historianet serb, apo sllavo-maqedone (bullgare) po te kesh paraysh vend-ndodhjen e Pollogut, po ajo nuk eshte edhe aq me rendesi. Perkatesine sllave te Vojsaves (Vojushes) duket sikur e mbeshtesin edhe emrat sllave qe hasen ne familjen Kastrioti, duke filluar nga vete Vojsava, e duke vazhduar tek emrat e disa prej femijeve & niperve te saj: Stanishe, Rreposh, Mamica, Branilo etj, (megjithese emrat jo cdohere e percaktojne perkatesine etnike te nje individi apo nje familjeje).

Cfaredo qe te kete qene perkatesia etnike e Vojsaves, vete Skenderbeu ka qene shqiptar (arber) meqe babain e ka pasur shqiptar. Dihet qe ne ate kohe kane ndodhur martesa te perziera mes familjeve feudale, keshtu qe edhe familja e Kastrioteve nuk ka bere ndonje perjashtim. Po ashtu dihet qe ne Ballkan, ashtu si edhe ne pjesen dermuese te shoqerive boterore, familjet jane patrilineale, domethene eshte perkatesia etnike e babait ajo qe e percakton kombesine (etnicitetin) e femijes. Pastaj, nuk ka qene vetem Skenderbeu qe ka pasur nenen te nje kombesie tjeter nga ajo e babait. Per shembull: perandori serb Dushani ka pasur nene nje bizantine (anadollake-greke?!), shume prej sulltaneve turq kane pasur nena jo-turke (greke, sllave, cifute, armene, gjorgje etj), po une nuk kam degjuar qe dikush te pretendoje qe Dushani ka qene grek, apo qe filan sulltan nuk ka qene turk.

Sa per fqinjet tane te jugut - "helenet" , qe pretendojne ne prejardhjen greke te Skenderbeut, ato bazohen ne mbiemrin me domethenie greke te Gjergjit. Pra, sipas tyre Skenderbeu ka qene grek se ka pasur mbiemer grek (kastron ne greqisht don te thote keshtjelle, ne mos gaboj). Mirepo "helenet" harrojne se po te perdorim te njejten logjike, domethene te percaktimit te kombesise se individit ne baze te mbiemrit, atehere do te dale qe sot greket, ne krye te qeverise se tyre kane nje turk .

[King_Gentius]

Familjet feudale shqiptare jane ndermartuar me italiane, greke, sllave, etj etj. Shkrimet e Gjon Muzakes ne www.albanianliterature.com tregojne per shume prej lidhjeve martesore te feudaleve shqiptare.

Fejer Nagy, Fidel Kastro eshte grek.

[ILIRI I MADH]

A e dini si mund te merni libra falas nga google?! Epo do tju tregoj xhaxha Iliri tani

...kerkoni donje liber ose fjale p.sh. "Skanderbeg" ne http://books.google.com/ edhe kur do dale faqja do mund te shikoni/lexoni vetem 3 ose 4 faqe...kur do kycet faqja e 3ta ose 4ta, shkoni siper edhe shtypni donje fjale ose number i faqees qe po e shikoni ne ate faqen qe e keni te hapur edhe shtypni "Search this book"...nga ato resultate qe do dalin hapeni ate faqe ku mbetet se lexuari ose faqja e fundit qe u kyc edhe do mund te vazhdoni ne faqen tjeter deri sa te kycen edhe nje here...kur do tju kycet, perseritni cdo hape, do mundeni edhe me shume te lexoni...

Po te duani ti merni faqet per ti postuare aty ne forumin, shtypni ne tastatura "Print Screen", hapeni MSPain edhe bejeni "Paste" ne ate vend...regulloeni mire edhe postojeni aty...

po te keni donje pyetje, vec pyetni ketu...kjo mund tju ndimoje shum (qe most blini libra te reja); jo vetem per te mesuar personalisht, po edhe per ne shkolle, edhe per ne tjerat forume ku tere kohen zijeni me fqinjte tane!

Hajt pra shendet!

[GL_Branch]

Qeta kurva duhet mi likfidu.... Fatos Lubonja, Kaplan Resuli Burovic , Ardian Vehbiu

shkrimet e tyre serbet po i perdorin kunder shqiptareve, keta jane tradhtaret me te medhenj te shqiptareve.....njerz deshtum ahahah hajt se veq fillimi osht kjo tradhtaret e mjere edhe ju shkite

[Hyllien]

Paske dit car me kerku ti Iliri i Madh.

[ILIRI I MADH]

Ja dhe ky Greku Xpo FERENS vuri nje "post" shume te mire ne "Illyria Forums"

Contra Castriotich
by: Xpo FERENS
contact: XpoFERENSi@yahoo.com

There have been many claims against Scanderbeg's Albanian ethnicity and identity. As we shall see, these claims are baseless and have long been dismissed in light of continued scholarship. Today, these claimes are only maintianed and propogated by those who have no respect for real scholarship and harbor some sort of political agenda. This brief essay is done in an attempt to remedy these bogus claims and to present their refutation by recognized scholarship.

The first scholarly claim that Scanderbeg was a Slav was made by Charles Hopf who misread a document of 1368 in Serbian. Through his misinterpretation he produced a "Branilo Kastrioti" which he put forth as Scanderbeg's great-grandfather. In spite of the clarification of this error by scholars, there are still Serbs today who believe in his existence. These Serbs give the below genealogy composed by various western genealogists as evidence:
[Note: This genealogy- www.aragon10.free-online.co.uk/cilia%20la%20corte-legacy/4832.htm rightly places him as Governor of Kanina whereas the below (which is the source of the previous) incorrectly places him as Governor of Jannina]

www.sardimpex.com/FILES/CASTRIOTA%20E%20BRANAI.htm

Branilo (+ assassinato a Jannina nel 1379 circa), di origine serba, Governatore di Jannina nel 1368. Sposa N.N.

For proof that Branilo was not the Governor of Janina for the given time period by the above genealogy see the below were the University of Ioannina cites Thomas Prebulovich as its ruler instead:

http://ioannina.uoi.gr/_en/history/byzantine_period.html

Ioannina in 1367 acknowledges Thomas Prelubovich as its ruler. His rule is to be extremely tyrannical as he persecutes and taxed the popularion, exiles the metropolitan and confiscates church property, which, he allegedly distributes among his Serb followers. Against his dismal regime, it would seem that the Albanians of Ioannina ask fot the protection of the Albanian chieftains with strongholds in Epirus. This starts the Albanian raids against Ioannina which lead the Despot Thomas to repair and renovate the fortness of Ioannina in 1375. In 1384, the tyranny of Thomas Prebulovich comes to an end.

With that cleared up, here is the original document that Hopf misread translated into Albanian by Sulejman Meco:



Here we can clearly see in the last paragraph that Branilo and Kastrioti are two different people and are separated by the Albanian edhe, meaning and.

The error made by Hopf is further treated by Harry Hodgkinson in the below:





[][][]
VAZHDON:

[ILIRI I MADH]

[Note: The only other great-grandfather given to Scanderbeg was a certain Constantinus Castriotus ascribed by Flavius Comnenus.]

With that established, let us turn our attension to the actual origins of the Kastrioti family.

One place commonly held to be the place of origin for the Kastrioti family is Kastoria in Greek Macedonia. As can be seen by Hodgkinson's treatment of the question, this theory does not even fit with Greek claims. Kastor, the root for Kastoria, is a Hellenic word for beaver and Kastoria has long been known for its furs. Clearly on can see that Kastor does not fit with Kastrion, meaning castle or citadel. Furthermore, there is no documentation whatsoever for the Kastrioti family having its origins in Kastoria.

Now before we begin with further examination, here are some pictures to get one familiar with the geography:




Marinus Barletius, who is the most original and authoritative source on Scanderbeg, places the origins of the Kastrioti family in Northern Albanian when he says, "John Kastrioti is from an old house of Mat". P. Lukari and E. Fermenxhin both trace the Kastrioti famliy back to the Has region where according to them there existed a place called Kastri. There also follows that nearby was a place called Mazrrek, and that a second surname of the Kastrioti's could have been Mazrreku, or Mazarreku. The Kastriot location in the Dibra area is also a possible place of origin for the Kastriotis, but as Fan Noli points out, it is not clear wether the Kastriotis took there name for the place, or the place from them. Another common place of origin is said to be the Kastrat area just northwest of Shkoder, which should also not be ignored. Athanas Gegaj tells us that the Kastrioti's are from Kastri in Mirdite. Notice that all the above places are in northern Albania. Also in the below we can see that the Kastrioti family is given as Albanian by a heraldry page that even lists Charles Hopf as one of its sources! Furthermore it informs us that in all certainly, the Kastrioti family begins with John, Scanderbeg's father:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm#castriota

The Kastrioti or Castriota family, of Albanian origin, begins with certainty with John Castriota, lord of Mat and Vumenestia, who died in 1443.

And here we have Noel Malcom who also gives an Albanian origin of the Kastriotis being from the Has-Tropoje area:



[][][]
VAZHDON:

[ILIRI I MADH]

Besides a mention of Paul Kastrioti as being Scanderbeg's grandfather in John Musachi's chronicle, their is no other reliable source in which there is a reference to any elder of Scanderbeg past his father.

The more common Serb claim is that George Kastrioti was Serbian on his maternal side. This claim is more credible but nonetheless not official. Barletius tells us that she is from Pollog and that that area is inhabited by Slavs, not telling us wether Serb or Bulgar. In discribing its location he tells of it being in and area of Bulgaria and Macedonia, he makes no mention whatsoever of Serbs or Serbia. Noli tells us that this area was a principality of the Balshas and was under the influence of the Kastriotis. It is highly probable that the nobility of this area was dominated by Albanians. As we shall see in the below, Hodgkinson tells us Voisava seems to have been from an Albanian family:



This also refutes the claim that the Kastrioti family was Serbian because some of Scanderbeg's sisters were married off to Serbs. Those matches were a completely logical and strategic choice reflecting the politics of the day. To say that this had some special ethnic demension is completely absurd. As is to say the same for Scanderbeg's brothers being sent to Serb monastaries at Mt. Athos. This, as is explained by Hodgkinson, was to gain favor with the re-emerging Serbs.

Therefore the below by a certain Branislav Perkovic (who is listed as the illustrator at the bottom right ot the jousting illustration), which places the Kastriotis among various Serb families is not so farfetched taking into consideration the political situation of the time and illustrator's disire to include the family among his own:



Then there is the below site (which also propogates the Kastoria theory for the origins of the Kastrioti family) which aims to give a Serbian identity to Scanderbeg, and if opon examination, does nothing of the sort:

http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/skenderbeg.html

As can be seen on that page, all of the quotes are from sources primarily concering Slavs and rightly reflects the politics, ideas, and attitudes of the times. For instance, one could most certainly predict what Count Leopold Ranke would have heard opon asking the Serbs and from reading their sources about Scanderbeg in the 19th century. This site even goes as far as saying about the below that "even M. Barleci an Albanian designates Skenderbeg a a Serb and not an Albanian at all."

The Catholic Albanian priest Marini Barleci says that Skenderbeg wore Serb clothing and wrote in 'Serb letters and Italian language' because the illiterate Albanians at that time could only write in Greek or Serb just as Skenderbeg "carried all discussions in the Serb language".

How that can be contrued about the above is beyond all logic.

In addition to all of the above it must be stated that: Nowhere, in any original documentation, is Scanderbeg or the Kastrioti family ever designated as Serbian.

Sources:

S. Meco, Dokumente per Historine e Skenderbeut, Albania (journal of the Comite national-democratique 'Albanie Libre'), Rome, 1970

Harry Hodgkinson, Scanderbeg, The Centre for Albanian Studies, London 1999

Noel Malcom, Kosovo: A Short History, Papermac, London, 1998

www.sardimpex.com/FILES/CASTRIOTA%20E%20BRANAI.htm

www.sardimpex.com/FILES/castriota-scanderberg.htm

www.aragon10.free-online.co.uk/cilia%20la%20corte-legacy/4832.htm

ioannina.uoi.gr/_en/history/byzantine_period.html

www.albanianliterature.com/html/authors/prose/musachi.html (if temporarily unavailable see here for John Musachi's chronicle:www.forumishqiptar.com/showthread.php?t=41100)

www.mirditaonline.net/art-kulture/mirdita_djepi.html

www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm#castriota

digital.library.upenn.edu/women/durham/albania/albania-III.html

hi-story.org.mk/9.htm

www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/skenderbeg.html

www.snpa.nordish.net/index2.htm

[MaxPower]

Serbet thojne shume gjera.

Nuk e di a eshte postuar me pare kjo faqe interesante.
http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm

Ne kete faqe eshte nje shkembim letrash ne mes te Skenderbeut dhe nje kundershtari Italian ku flitet edhe per kombesi.

The letter to Skanderbeg:

ÒGiovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, to Georgio albanese, greeting.



You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.



Sipas pegjigjes se Skenderbeut kunder fyerjeve te Italianit duket se ai ka qene shqiptar dhe nacionalist . skenderbeu e quan veten dhe shqiptaret pasardhes se epiroteve dhe maqedoneve te lashte por askund nuk i permend serbet dhe greket.

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:

ÒGiorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, greeting.



Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?

In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neÕ) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeÕ?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.

(Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mi vai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed.

Good bye....Ó

[GL_Branch]

hahahaha shikoni se ultra-naciolistet shpifkesit deshtakat se ku i marrin shkrimet anti shqiptare muahahah sa qesharake cfare egzagjerimi

http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/


Iliri i Madh vazhdo shoke me shkrime tjera mos u ndalo

**** Serbs (caucazian people, mix iranian-caucaz)