Ti mer cun je tralala!
Pergjigje per temen, a ke? Mesa duket, jo! Une po pres kundra-argumenta edhe fakte te drejtperdrejta, qe ne fakt nuk mund te kete.
Atehere dalim ne tematiken se ti Qafir nuk ke as dinjitetin e duhur te te marurit pjese ne nje teme a debat.
Vetekenaqesia dhe fjalori derogativ qe perdorni ndaj pjesemarresve ne debat deshmon thellesine e mendimit, por nuk perben asesi reference per gabimet e Shen Irineut, per te cilat nje jave me pare u kerkuat te sillni referenca. Deri atehere, kercimet tuaja argumentative nuk mund t'ju sigurojne trofe me te mire se ate qe meritoni plotesisht, fronin e mediokritetit heretik.
Sa per camet dhe arvanitasit ata jane asimiluar krjtesisht, ne Gumenice apo gjetke shqip flasin vetem pleqte dhe per keta e kisha fjalen ne shkrimin e mesipem.....sa per arvanitasit nese e flet shqipen 1% e tyre kjo eshte shume....Postuar mė parė nga Albo
Sa per Greqine asnjehere nuk kam shkruajtur as kam shprehur urrejtje ndaj saj. Ti nga e nxore kete perfundim? Une thjesht perderisa jetoj ketu pershkruaj realitetin te cilin ti nuk e ke jetuar dhe i sheh gjerat nga kendveshtrimi i USA....
Shoqeria ime ketu eshte greke, kalojme "super", nuk kemi probleme rracizmi etj.. kshu qe une jo nuk kam urrejtje per greket por as qe e kam shkuar ndermend nje gje te tille...Mos u nxito te nxjerresh perfundime, fjalja "urrejtje" eshte fjale e rende qe nuk me karakterizon dhe larg meje kjo gje....
Sa per dijeni ne Athine ka: Kishe Ruse, Kishe Armene, Kishe Katolike dhe kisha te Besimeve te tjera sic ka dhe nje Synagoge....
Pse te mos kete nje Kishe Shqiptare per besimtaret shqiptare dhe cermonite fetare te behen ne shqip?
Nese keto quhen justifikime te kota, Zoti te me fale!
Gjithe te mirat Albo, Perendia qofte me ty ne cdo cast!
Tiras,
leni feminizmat e tua, edhe ftillohu se fjalori nuk mund te percaktoje vertetesine e nje pohimi. Te verteten e percakton fakti edhe logjika.
Une i jam pergjigjur te gjitha sfidave te tua, per me teper qe nuk ia lejoj vetes qe te mos te te pergjigjesha, vete fakti qe juve nuk i referoheni dot asnje vendi ku une jam mnagut me pergjigje. Gabimi im i vetem eshte se kur juve nuk pergjigjeni temes, nuk eshte per tua varur me, se eshte e kote te merresh me ju, rob pa dinjitet.
Sipas llogjikes i bie qe ti nuk duhet te besosh mrekullite e Zotit.
"The true history of mankind will be written only when Albanians participate in it's writing." -ML
Si duket fakti dhe logjika juaj jane reduktuar te konceptoje vetem formen, per shkak te kerkimeve te lodhshme dhe pafryt per te dalluar pantallonat nga minifundet ne logjike. Ndryshe nuk do tju dukeshin si sfida pyetjet baze dhe formuese per besimtarin, e aq me pak, do konsideronit pergjigje nje tufe tangerlliqesh heretike te kamufluar me copa gjysem te vertetash historike e fetare. Apo pasi humbet shpirtin tuaj, po beni cmos te ngaterroni edhe te tjeret?
Brenda kesaj teme. Ju thate se Shen Kozmai ka gabime pasi ka qene njeri. Une ju parashtrova se tradita ortodokse (ndryshe nga ajo katolike) I cileson shenjtet pa te meta doktrinore (solla edhe citimin e Arkipershkopit te Athines si argument). Ju vazhduat se Shenjtet kane bere gabime, psh Shen Irineu. Po presim te na dokumentoni gabimet, gje qe do tregoje se Kisha Ortodokse ka nje pozicion te gabuar ne kete subjekt, ndersa ju jeni shpetimtari(ja) e saj e ardhshme, sigurisht kur te kaloni kete faze herezie.
P.S. Mbase ne Seminarin tuaj dinjitetin ja u japin dhe marrin si mall? Egersia juaj deshmon se ju ka kushtuar shtrenjte. Po perseri kjo mbetet mes jush dhe Zotit.
Po pse more Tiras je kaq i mefshte? Pse ndryshoni fjalet e te tjereve, aq me teper qe nuk i referohesh dot asnje fjalie times?
Une nuk kam thene qe Shen Kozmai ka gabime, por kam thene se shenjtoret nuk jane te pagabueshem. E para me te dyten, ndryshon ne ate se, nese e para eshte fakt, e dyta tregon me teper potencial.
Vete fakti qe une e mbeshteta te shprehurit e Shen Kozmait, duke iu referuar gabimeve te Delvines, tregon se une ne asnje pike nuk kam thene qe Shen Kozmai KA gabime!
Ti, edhe te tjere ketu, shfaqni nje mahni te llahtarshme per tju mos adresuar pikerisht argumentave, edhe per te ndryhsuar mendimet e te tjereve.
Ti me pyet, se une nuk paskam treguar gabimet e Shen Irineut, kur une e kam psotuar ketu e sa dite, qe ai ka qene hiliast (nje doktrine heretike e shek.2)?
cfare te bej une, te mesoj ty se cfare jane hiliastet?
Pika e trete, ti vjen e me nje gazete maqedonase me thua se doktrina kishtare ortodokse na besoka se shenjtet jane te pagabueshem!
Tiras, pash nerin, na le rehat, se edhe kaq sa te jam drejtuar, e ke shume.
Ja argumentat e mia:
Le te shohim pak kete artikull te Thomas Hopko-s:
une nuk po e perkthej duke menduar se debatuesit ketu dine anglisht.
http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/...ly-1970-QA.html
Background
This article was written in 1971 to answer a number of questions on the autocephaly of the Orthodox Church in America. Some discussions -- such as the state of the USSR -- are appropriate to that time, but less relevant now. [Editor]
2. Why is there such a distinction made between autocephalous and autonomous churches?
The only real reason for the distinction is that an autocephalous church is fully mature and fully capable of carrying on its own life, mission and hierarchal succession; whereas an autonomous church is not yet capable of doing so.
The autonomous church, however, even though it does not have the capabilities for full autocephaly, still has such unique conditions -- geographic, linguistic, cultural, etc. -- that it cannot merely be a "part" of some other church and be fully adequate to its churchly mission.
Thus, for example, the very particular conditions of the churches in Japan and Finland require that these churches have self-government and freedom from direction or control from outside. These churches, however, are not yet ready to be fully autocephalous because, for example, they do not have enough bishops to secure the normal succession of their hierarchies. Thus they are autonomous with a relation to another autocephalous church.
This, by the way, was the exact plan which the bishops in America were already asking for the Church in America at the turn of the century, more than sixty or seventy years ago. Even then it was understood that the conditions of the church in America were so unique that it could not possibly continue on as a diocese of the Russian Church which was thousands of miles away and whose conditions of life were completely different. Thus Archbishop Tikhon (later Patriarch Tikhon) and Father Leonid Turkevich (later Metropolitan Leonty) called for autonomy, and eventually full autocephaly, for America decades ago!
3. What specifically are the conditions for a church to be autocephalous?
When a church in a given geographical, national or linguistic territory, with conditions of life uniquely proper to itself, has enough bishops to perpetuate its own hierarchy ...
when it has a sufficient number of priests and people to care for its parishes and to carry on its mission ...
when it has sufficient educational and charitable institutions, with money enough to administer itself and to support its projects ...
when it has publications and books suited to its own particular conditions, purposes and needs as a church ...
when, in a word, it is a mature churchly body with full capabilities of maintaining and developing its life without any outside guidance and support -- except of course the mutual guidance and support that all sister churches give to each other ...
when finally, there is absolutely no justifiable reason before God and the dogmas and canons of the Holy Church, why it should exist merely as a part of some other church ...
then this church not only may be an autocephalous church in the family of Orthodoxy, but it must be such a church, recognized and blessed by all others!
Seminarist
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07-10-2004, 00:35 #45
Seminarist
Agios Irineos tis Lion
Anėtar qė prej : 03-10-2003
Postime: 671 tashti, po te nisemi nga pika e trete, a e kuptoni dot meriten e patjetersueshme te Kryepiskop Anastasit?!
Citim
3. What specifically are the conditions for a church to be autocephalous?
When a church in a given geographical, national or linguistic territory, with conditions of life uniquely proper to itself, has enough bishops to perpetuate its own hierarchy ...
when it has a sufficient number of priests and people to care for its parishes and to carry on its mission ...
when it has sufficient educational and charitable institutions, with money enough to administer itself and to support its projects ...
when it has publications and books suited to its own particular conditions, purposes and needs as a church ...
when, in a word, it is a mature churchly body with full capabilities of maintaining and developing its life without any outside guidance and support -- except of course the mutual guidance and support that all sister churches give to each other ...
when finally, there is absolutely no justifiable reason before God and the dogmas and canons of the Holy Church, why it should exist merely as a part of some other church ...
then this church not only may be an autocephalous church in the family of Orthodoxy, but it must be such a church, recognized and blessed by all others!
Kush i beri te mundura plotesimin e te gjitha ketyre kushteve, ne menyre qe kishes ortodokse ne Shqiperi te mos i hiqej de facto Autoqefalia e shkaterruar pas 67-tes? Janullatosi!
A e kuptoni dot tashti se Janullatosi eshte themeluesi i vertete i Autoqefalise shqiptare edhe me i suksesshem edhe se Shen Kozmai ne gjurmet e te cilit ka ecur plotesisht sipas standarteve te kohes?
Ja dhe citimi jot. Atehere ti po mundohesh te lesh hapur nje ceshtje nese Shen Kozmai ka gabuar apo jo jo ne kuptimin e faktit por ne kuptimin e potencialit, pra te lesh hapesire per interpretim(dmth interpretimin qe do ti, sepse interpretimet e tjera nuk kane kuptim). Atehere nese ti mundohesh te besh nje gje te tille, ka dy gjera, ose je nje hipokrit qe nuk e ka shokun, ose ti nuk mund te thuash dot me bindje te plota se Shen Kozmai eshte i pagabueshem.
"The true history of mankind will be written only when Albanians participate in it's writing." -ML
Sa per Janullatosin dhe Kishen ja te ta tregoj une mire ty se cfare thote e njejta adrese qe ti merr.
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Parish Background
St George Cathedral was organized in March, 1908 following the first Liturgy celebrated in Boston by the Rev. Fr Fan Stylian Noli (later Metropolitan THEOPHAN). Under the omophorion of Metropolitan PLATON, it was the first parish to begin a missionary apostolate among the growing numbre of immigrants from Albanian regions who began to arrive in New England from 1886 onwards.
The cathedral made a vibrant contribution to the homeland's national awakening in the first years of the twentieth century, assisting in the formation of an Orthodox Autocephalous Church in the homeland and sponsoring the publication of liturgical books in the Albanian language for the first time.
At the same time, an equally prodigious number of choral hymnals and catechetical books in English were published from the 1930's to the present in order to meet the needs of American-born faithful served by the parish. Today, the congregation includes parishioners of many backgrounds who have embraced the Orthodox Faith. Services are conducted primarily in English and Albanian.
Centrally located in near downtown Boston at the intersection of major thoroughfares, the Cathedral draws faithful from over forty outlying towns which encircle the Hub, thus giving the congregation a diverse, cosmopolitan character. It is the largest Orthodox house of worship in Massachusetts.
As episcopal seat of the Albanian Archdiocese, His Beatitude, Metropolitan THEODOSIUS, Archbishop of Washington serves as administrator in his capacity as locum tenens of this diocese.
History of the Parish
St George Cathedral: A 90th Anniversary Historical Trilogy. by Denise Lymperis
Part 1: Laying the Foundation: 1908-1938
On March 22, 1908, Theophan Stylian Noli celebrated the first Divine Liturgy in the Albanian language in the history of the Orthodox Church. "Our eyes were filled with tears," Contstantine "Nini" Demo, one of our church elders would recall years later, at age 94, in relating the story of that first service at the Knights of Honor Hall in Boston. On that day, also the Sunday of Orthodoxy, the Church of St George was established and the life of our community began.
Like other Albanian immigrants during those early years, who were mostly males, our founding fathers lived in konaks; dreary, unheated flats with groups of ten or more men sharing household duties and supporting their newfound church with their meager wages. Until 1922, when the Emerald St Church in the South End was purchased, they worshipped in various rented halls and lofts throughout the city. After services, each of them would take home icons and various other holy relics for safekeeping until the next Sunday, when they would come together to literally "build the church" anew for Divine worship.
The Hudson Incident
Although the Albanians who came to America had long dreamed of establishing their own church, it was the notorious "Hudson incident" that rallied them to action and hastened Fan Noli's ordination as their spiritual leader. In 1907, a young man, Kristaq Dishnica, died in Hudson, Massachusetts of influenza. No Orthodox Church would perform the funeral rites because as an Albanian patriot, he was considered an excommunicant of the faith. And so he was laid to rest in a Worcester cemetery without any religious service.
The incident aroused the ire of the Albanians in Massachusetts and Fan Noli recognized his calling as an opportunity to serve the spiritual needs of his own community and to champion the cause for religious and political freedom in Albania. He was able to garner the support of Archbishop Platon, head of the Russian Orthodox Church in the Unitd States, who ordained him on March 18, 1908 at the Cathedral of St Nicholas in New York City. Just one week later, he was appointed administrator of the Albanian Orthodox Mission in America, and later elevated to the rank of Mitred Archimandrite.
"Liri a Vdekje" (Liberty or Death)
The founding of St George Cathedral was a pivotal event in the struggle to liberate Albania from its oppressors. Indeed, most Albanians, whether Muslim, Catholic, or Orthodox, recognized that the goal could not be accomplished without the involvement of the church. Although Albania had been under Turkish rule since 1478, its Orthodox churches were headed by the Greek Patriarchate of Constantinople. For five centuries, Albanian communications, located mostly in the south, were not permitted to worship in their own languages.
It was virtually impossible to organize an independence movement in Albania because all the patriotic societies had gone underground and practically died out, on account of Turkish persecution. Although there were a few isolated patriots scattered throughout Eastern Europe and in Egypt, they felt their mission could be best accomplished through the immigrant communities in the United States. Fan Noli was selected to organize them, and in May 1906 he arrived in Jamestown, New York, where the fraternal society "Malli i Memedheut" (Longing for the Motherland) had been formed the year before. Three months later he jopurneyed to Boston to work with Sotir Peci, another great pioneer of the Albanian Renaissance, who had just begun printing the first Albanian newspaper in Boston, Kombi (The Nation).
During this time, several national organizations began springing up, including the Pan-American Federation, Vatra (The Hearth), which Noli headed wioth the preeminent literary stylist and Albanian patriot, Faik Konitza. Vatra became the most powerful organization in the Albanian Renaissance, and its newspaper, Dielli (The Sun), is still published today. Noli also travelled to Bulgaria, Romania, Russia, Italy, England and France to help organize communities for the cause, all the while conducting services in Albanian.
On November 28, 1912, Albania was liberated after Turkey was defeated by the Balkan Allies. But during World War I, it was overrun by foreign armies and Noli appealed to President Woodrow Wilson in Mount Vernon in July 1918 to restore its independence. He received the pledge: "I have one voice at the Parish Peace Conference and I shall use it in behalf of Albania." Wilson's success made him the most popular champion of Albanian independence. Two years later, as a delegate of Vatra, Noli was instrumental in gaining Albania's admittance to the League of Nations and in securing its modern boundaries. In 1922, the goals for the formation of the Church of Albania were set forth at the Congress of Berat, but it would take another 15 years before the Patriarchate of Constantinople would finally recongize its autocephaly.
In November 1923, Noli was consecrated a bishop in Korce and named Primate of all Albania. At this point, Noli had planned to retire from politics to devote all of his time to his diocese. But the following spring, he became involved in a peasant uprising against the Conservative, land owning party headed by Ahmed Zog. After a revolt he served as Premier and Acting Regent of Albania, until a few months later when Zog returned from his flight into Yugoslavia at the head of a mercenary army and reinstated his rule. Noli fled to Germany on Christmas Day, 1924, intending to return to his followers in the US, but was unable to get an American Visa and remained stranded there until 1932.
The Church Progresses in America
Despite Noli's absence following the war, his church in America continued to flourish and new parishes were formed in Natick, Worcester, Philadelphia, Jamestown and Southbridge. At St George's, new clergy were ordained: Fr Naum Cere, an accomplished iconographer; Fr Damian Angeli, Fr Vangel Chamche, who later served as a bishop in the homeland, and Fr Koli Kristofer, the first Albanian to arrive in America. A choir was formed in 1916 by Professor Thomas Nassi, a New England Conservatory graduate.
In the late 1920s, the women, who would come to play a major sustaining role in the life of the church, began to arrive in greater numbers, and formed their own societies, the Daughters of St George and Bashkimi (Union). In 1934, the choir was reorganized, using the hymnals prepared and translated into Albanian by Metropolitan Theophan. By this time, however, Noli faced the monumental task of translating the liturgical books and music into English to ensure the participation of the first American born generation. Ever a visionary, he also turned his attention toward the goal of uniting all the various ethnic branches of the church in the United States into a single American Orthodox Church.
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Shif more jeten e tij ketu, qe eshte vetem 1/100 e asaj qe ai ka hequr ne te vertete qe t'i jepte Shqiptareve nje besim te TYRIN, jo nje besim "te huaj". Qe t'i adresoheshin Zotit me gjuhen e tyre dhe jo me nje gjuhe te imponuar nga te tjeret per plot 5 shekuj me rradhe.
"The true history of mankind will be written only when Albanians participate in it's writing." -ML
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