Dallimet mes Evropës dhe Amerikës

[Toro]

KundraRRymes,
Ne baze te kujt ligji nderkombetar ata te "rrembyerit" ne Guantanamo duhet te kene te drejten e avokatit?
Thjesht nje pyetje kisha....po deshe pergjigjmu pak.

[leci]

Edhe 10 here te tjera te bashkohet Europa kurre nuk ka per te arritur te jete 1/4 e Amerikes.
Europa eshte si ajo plaka e vjeter qe perpiqet te fshehe rrudhat duke u mbeshtetur mbi moralin e semure dhe vlera qe eksistojne vetem ne kokat e semura.
Persa i perket Anglise ne Europe KUNDRARRYMES kam dyshimet e mija.Me duket se e sheh boten nga nje vend ku nuk shihet mire.
Dhe Amerika nuk mund te jete polici i botes,nuk ka shkopin magjik te zgjidhe te gjithe konfliktet.

[kundraRRYMES]

1-PO te konsiderohen ROB LUFTE ....ata detyrimisht duhet te kene te drejtat qe kane ROBERIT E LUFTES.
2-Edhe po te mos konsiderohen ROB LUFTE por njerez normal, kane te drejten e nje gjygji CIVIL, dhe jo USHTARAK SPECIAL.
Ne te dyja rastet qofte vete kushtetuta amerikane qofte dhe ligjet nderkombetare mbi ROBERIT E LUFTES, dhe te DREJTAT E NJERIUT te UN jane shkelur me te dyja kembet dhe kjo per faktin se ata nuk konsiderohen as NJEREZ e as ROBER LUFTE... nje zot e di. Thone qe ata jane BRAIN WASHED nga ideologjia Islame , por shikoj qe JU jeni BRAIN WASHED nga tjeter ideologji.

Nese kerkon dhe ligjet qe shkelen mjafton te besh kontroll dhe do ta shikosh qe cfare ligjesh jane shkelur, nese i do me numra ..dhe akte..

[Toro]

KundraRRYMES, Ata nuk jane rober lufte....Fare thjesht sepse nuk permbushin kushtet e roberve te luftes sipas Konventes se Gjeneves, i cili thote:
"ARTICLE 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, incuding those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) that of carrying arms openly;

(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Pra perkrahesit e Talibaneve ne Afganistan:NUK ishin ushtare te ushtrise afgane, nuk kishin dinstiktiv dallues ne largesi, udheheqes te rregullt, as uniforma. Megjithate luftonin kunder ushtrise amerikane. Nje gje e tille u jep te drejte jo vetem amerikaneve por cdo pale ne cilindo konflikt qe te tille persona ti arrestoje dhe ti mbaje PENGJE. Kete te drejte jua u jep Konventa e Gjeneves dhe Karta e Hages ( artikulli ( neni) 50).

"Zoterinjte" e arrestuar ne Guantanamo te KUBES nuk mund te trajtohen sipas ligjeve amerikane sepse :
1) Baza ushtarake amerikane e Guantanamos ne Kuba eshte territor kubanez , jo amerikan. Si e tille aty mund te zbatohet ligji kubanez ( i cili i denon me vdekje). ( Baza eshte territor kubanez i marre me qira nga SHBA, pra ligjet civile dhe gjykatesit civile nuk kane juridiksion ligjor te ushtrojne pushtetin gjyqesor ne territor kubanez).

Pra ku na qenkan shkelur ligjet dhe te drejtat e te mbajturve nga SHBA ne Guantanamo. Ma thuaj pra ne cilin artikull te Gjeneves apo te Kushtetutes amerikane?

[Toro]

Sa i interesuar qenke per talibanet o KundraRRYMES....dhe vellezer ti kishe nuk do beje aq....Sikur te interesoheshe me teper per ata antare te UCK te kapur ne beteje nga serbet me uniforma te rregullta dhe me dinstinktiva te dallueshem, por qe mbahen peng nga Serbia edhe sot e kesaj dite pa u aplikuar ligji nderkombetar, do ta kuptoja "sensitivitetin" tend per zbatimin e ligjeve nderkombetare....Por te harrosh vellezerit e tu e te qurravitesh per talibanet e Guantanamos vetem nje i verbuar nga propaganda antiamerikane mund ta beje.

[Andrra e Jetes]

Shiko kundra rrymes ato faktet jane historike,vetem Tomas Edison ka mijera patenta ato shpikjet jane te USA dhe kjo dihet qarte,sa per komunistet mos te ishte USA sot do merrje kurse te gjuhes rusishte ne vend te anglishtes!Taman si te thote Toro merakosu per shqiptaret dhe miqte tane si shqiptare e leri talebanet e mjekrat e tjera nuk eshte hesapi jone ajo pune!Mik i dashur Evropa eshte shembulli se si nuk duhet qeverisur,Amerika eshte bere nga evropianet por nga evropianet qe ishin te pakenaqur me dhelperite e fanatizmin e kontinentit plak!Ata braktisen Evropen si kontinentin e intrigave dhe krimeve e bene nje shtet me te persosurin deri me sot!USA eshte model ne baze te se cilit u ndertua bota pas Luftes se Dyte Boterore...Lexo me mire mos kundershto kot!

[Toro]

Postuar me pare nga kundraRRYMES:

quote:
I dashur apo jo i dashur per ju ZONJUSHKE, Iraku sikurse dhe SERBIA( do ti apo nuk do ti) ishin shtete te pavarur. Ku e ke ameriken ne konfliktin Izrael-palestine... Izraeli shtet qe ka pushtuar toka dhe ka krijuar kampet e perqendrimit dhe amerika cfare ben, i shet akoma arme.

Iraku ashtu dhe Jugosllavia ( jo Serbia sic shprehesh) jane shtete multinacionale ku integriteti dhe sovraniteti i tyre eshte i lidhur ngushte me respektimin e te drejtave te minoriteteve perkatese. Mosrespektimi i ketyre te drejtave ( kurdeve ne Irak , kosovareve, kroateve, slloveneve, boshnjakeve ne Jugosllavi) eshte baraz me prishjen e konventave nderkombetare qe njohin sovranitetin e ketyre shteteve. Pra nuk jane aq te "pavarura" sa kujton. Dhe garante per te drejtat dhe miretrajtimin e minoriteteve ne Jugosllavi ishin po ato shtete evropiane qe i dhane keto territore Jugosllavise, te cilat as nuk e cane koken per te vraret ne Kroaci, Bosnje, Kosove. Perkundrazi SHBA, kryen detyren e tyre morale dhe nderhyne duke shpeuar Evropen nga turpi i gjenocidit ne zemer te saj. KJO ESHTE AMERIKA!

quote:
E harruat 1993 Californi apo ju ka ikur nga kujtesa ,,,, nje shtet qe nuk respekton qytetaret e vet cfare pret te respektoje qytetaret e shteteve te tjera.

E ke fjalen per ate zezakun qe e rrahen policet "racista"? 8 milione demshperblim ( nja 500 mije dollare per cdo grusht qe ka ngrene ka marre) nuk eshte respekt? Sikur te me jepte mua shteti grek apo ai shqiptar te njejten sasi parash per cdo grusht e shkelm qe kam ngrene nga police respektive, do te isha miliarder tani. Vetem ne SHBA, shteti u jep demshperblim shtetasve qe ka "keqtrajtuar". KJO ESHTE AMERIKA!


quote:
Ne mes te Londres eksiston nje person qe tha : Une do te luftoj kedo qe sulmon Islamin dhe ndaj tij nuk behet asnje gje, pasi cdo person eshte i lire te shprehet dhe te beje cfare ai deshiron derisa ai nuk shkel ligjin.
Cfare ndodh ne amerike... cdo person qe udheton qofte dhe per turizem ne lindje te mesme , eshte i skeduar dhe mbahet nen vezhgim.

Ne SHBA te tille persona si ai i Londres marrin OSCAR dhe dalin shajne presidentin e askush nuk i prek me dore, zoteri. Harrove Michael Moore?
Cuditerisht skedimi eshte nje praktike e ardhur nga Evropa. Nje si njohuri im pasi kreu denimin e plote ( per krimin qe beri-vjedhje makine-klasike per shqiptaret e Italise) ne Itali, mori si thele mbi bisht dhe nje ndalim te hyrjes ne cdo vend te BE per 7 vjet!!!! "Harruan " tja komunikonin dhe e mori vesh 3 vjet pasi kish dale nga burgu duke e kthyer megjithese me vize nga aeroporti i Athines! Ka 5 vjet qe nuk sheh dot prinderit qe ka ne Greqi fale skedimit EUROPIAN!

quote:
Cfare jane keto idiotsira per PURIZEM, e NAIVITET kur politika qe ajo ndjek eshte e tille qe favorizon vetem shtetin amerikan?

Mos valle politika e Frances favorizon gje greket? Apo politika e Greqise favorizon shtetin austriak? Ke pare ndonji shtet zoteri qe te ndjeki politike ku te favorizoje shtete te tjera? Pse i kerkon te tilla absurditete nga SHBA atehere?

quote:

Ku ishte amerika per 10 vjet ne konlifkin civil ne afrike ??

Afrika deri ne 1960 ka qene koloni EVROPIANE! E Britanise se Madhe, Frances, Belgjikes, Hollandes dhe Gjermanise. Konfliktet u bene pasi keto shtete EUROPIANE, pasi e molen Afriken nga pasurite natyrore per 4-5 shekuj, e zhveshen komplet nga ana ekonomike dhe me vone u shisnin arme per tu vrare me njeri -tjeterin. Nga SHBA pret te korrigjoje idiotesirat e EVROPES? Amerikanet i di per budallenj zotrote apo per intelekt te shkurter? Apo te duket mashe per ti nxjerre Evropes geshtenjat nga zjarri?

quote:

Pse e ka cilesuar pas 1967 Kuvajtin si prekje e drejte per drejte e interesave amerikane ?
Per here te pare po e degjoj kete. A ka mundesi te me sjellesh burimin e kesaj ( gazete apo liber ) dhe se cili President amerikan apo Sekretar i shteti e ka bere kete deklarate? Po qe se ke ndonji burim kuptohet!
quote:
Pse sulmoi Serbine dhe nuk sulmon Rusine ku dhe CECENET edhe sot e kesaj dite po luftojne per pavarsi??

Sepse Rusia i respekton te drejtat e minoriteteve qe ka zoteri. I vetmi minoritet qe na "paska lene " pa respektuar na paska qene Cecenet. Nryshe nuk ka si shpjegohet se si nga 55 minoritete qe ka Rusia, ajo nuk respektoka vetem 1!!!!!! Sepse vetem cecenet kerkojne "pavarsi". Natyrisht kerkesa per pavaresi behet sipas rregullave klasike te terrorizmit, duke marre pengje civile, duke vrare ruse te pafajshem etj. Pergjigjju pyetjes perse asnje kosovar nuk ka kryer akte terrorizmi ndaj Serbise , Frances, Rusise ( di ndonji kosovar te kete vene bomba ne metrote e Parisit e Moskes apo te kete hedh ne ere diskoteka ne Beograd?) dhe do te gjesh njekohesisht pergjigjen pse Amerika nderhyu ne Serbi dhe jo ne Rusi!

quote:

Pse nuk sulmon dhe KINEN e cila shkel te drejtat e njeriut ne menyre flagrante ?

SHBA ka 50 vjet qe mbron Tajvanin, ku respektohen te drejtat e njeriut....Mos valle duhet sulmoje Kinen? Embargoja qe kish kaq dekada nuk mjaftonte? Apo juve ne Evrope ju ka marre malli per BBQ nukleare dhe te akuzoni dhe njehere SHBA se perdor arme atomike.

[D&G Feminine]

Toro, kete me siper ( a jane POW - prisoners of war- talibanet) e kam bere ne international law. Pergjigja jote eshte shume e sakte.

[kundraRRYMES]

Andrra Jetes:
Electric Lighting Begins

Sir Humphrey Davy of England invented the first electric carbon arc lamp in 1801.
A.E. Becquerel of France theorized about the fluorescent lamp in 1857.
Sir Joseph Swann of England and Thomas Edison both invented the first electric incandescent lamps around the 1870s.

"Henry Woodward of Toronto, who along with Matthew Evans patented a light bulb in 1875. Unfortunately, the two entrepreneurs could not raise the financing to commercialize their invention. The enterprising American Thomas Edison, who had been working on the same idea, bought the rights to their patent. Capital was not a problem for Edison: he had the backing of a syndicate of industrial interests with $50,000 to invest - a sizable sum at the time. Using lower current, a small carbonized filament, and an improved vacuum inside the globe, Edison successfully demonstrated the light bulb in 1879 and, as they say, the rest is history." (National Research Council of Canada)

Toro:
6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Do me thene e ke thene vete qe jane POW ...por qe fatekeqesisht nuk pranohen pasi :
1-USA nuk i njeh si forme qeverisje ne Afganistan Talibanet,
2- Bazuar ne Konventen e Gjeneves per POW ( ku per fatin e "mire" nuk plotesohen 4 kushtet e sidomos mbajtja e shenjave dalluese)---

Shteti ku mendohet demokracia ka lindur dhe ka arritur kulmin :

Shaved Taliban captives flown to a cage in Cuba
By Ben Fenton in Washington
(Filed: 11/01/2002)


THE first al-Qa'eda and Taliban prisoners bound for an American prison camp in Cuba, where they will be held in cells open to the elements, were flown out of Afghanistan last night.


US Marines search Taliban prisoners before internment
The 20-strong group was led, chained and blindfolded, wearing orange prison overalls and with their beards apparently shaved, on to the tarmac of Kandahar airport before being escorted one by one up the ramp of a C-17 transport aircraft. Each was then locked to a seat.

They were the first of 368 men, thought to be among the most dangerous al-Qa'eda and Taliban fighters captured, who will be sent to the US military base at Guantanamo Bay.

Shortly after the aircraft took off, the base at Kandahar came under small arms fire. Marines responded with heavy fire and helicopters circled in pursuit of the gunmen.

The remaining prisoners are being held in American custody in various parts of Afghanistan or on board US Navy vessels in the Arabian Sea, and will be transferred to Cuba in groups of 20 to 30.

Once in Guantanamo Bay, a Marines base that America kept despite Fidel Castro's revolution in 1959, the prisoners will be held in harsh conditions while the White House works out what to do with them.

The detention compound, known as Camp X-Ray, resembles a Second World War prison camp with German shepherd dogs patrolling and barbed wire coiled in every direction.

The prisoners will be held in a series of 6ft by 8ft rectangles with walls made of chain-link fencing and simple roofs.

Journalists visiting the site described them as cages, and Col Terry Carrico, commander of the security force at the base, admitted that if it rains, "there's a possibility they could get wet".

He described the units as "outdoor cells". Brig Gen Michael Lehnert, is commander of Joint Task Force 160, which was formed to guard the prisoners.

He said: "Our job here is to take these terrorists out of the fight by locking them up. We have no intention of making it comfortable for them. We'll make it humane."

The camp was last used to house the most unruly elements among 40,000 Cuban and Haitian refugees during a crisis in the mid-1990s. It could now accommodate as many as 2,000 terrorists from around the world.

The status of the prisoners remains uncertain. America refers to them as "battlefield detainees", which gives them only limited rights under the Geneva Convention compared with prisoners of war, but allows them to be charged with war crimes.

President Bush signed an order in November that would allow the Pentagon to conduct military tribunals on the men.

daily telegraph :

According to one press account, the US government position is that for captured soldiers to be considered combatants they must be “wearing a uniform with recognizable insignia, being subject to a chain of command, and carrying arms openly.” By that standard, very few of the soldiers on any side in the Afghan war, either Taliban or Northern Alliance, could be considered entitled to POW status if captured. Both uniforms and command structures were informal, to put it mildly.

The same is true of the American special forces who played a key role in the Northern Alliance victory. They mainly wore civilian clothes and kept their weapons out of sight. There is no doubt, however, that had the roles been reversed, and a sizeable number of these special forces personnel ended up as Taliban captives, the US government would have stridently demanded they be accorded POW status.

The truth is that the Taliban prisoners have been taken to Guantanamo only because the US government had the physical power to do so. From a strictly legal standpoint, rather than being “terrorists,” these prisoners should be considered victims of kidnapping at gunpoint by the government of the United States.

The US is involved in at least one other significant violation of international law in its treatment of these prisoners—failing to observe the Vienna Convention on Consular Access, to which the US is a signatory, which provides that Washington must notify consular officials of foreign countries when their citizens have been detained by any branch of the US government. So far such notification has only been delivered to the British Foreign Office in the case of the one British national who is among the first batch of prisoners at Guantanamo.

Most US states regularly flout the Vienna Convention when it comes to notifying foreign countries that their citizens have been arrested. Several states have executed foreign nationals who went to their deaths without ever being allowed contact with representatives of their native country, a practice that has been upheld by the US Supreme Court. While Bush was governor of Texas, the state flatly defied the jurisdiction of the Vienna Convention, advancing the bizarre legal argument that this international treaty applied only to the federal government, not to Texas, because the state was not itself a signatory.

Toro: nuk me dhimbsen as Talibanet e as terroristat, por ky eshte precedent per nje procedure te pazakonshme ne te ardhmen.
Te njejten gje do te bejne dhe Maqedonasit me shqiptaret ne Maqedoni, do te cilesohen TERRORISTA dhe nuk do te perfshihen ne asnje nga ligjet e Konventes se Gjeneves.

Nese do te kesh durimin te lexosh, te tere shkrimin, besoj se do te arrish ne konkluzionin se : USA po "respekton" te drejtat e njeriut. dhe se te burgosurit sipas Konventes se Gjeneves mund te mbahen ne" KAFAZE" dhe se ndoshta " mund te lagen kur bie shi"...

Cdo gje eshte relative, dhe varet se nga cili kend veshtrim ti i analizon gjerat.
Nuk po mbeshtes askend por po mundohem te te shpjegoj qe shpesh here USA luan rolin e atij " te fortit" qe kur e shikon apo e prek njeri " kercen dhe ja ben turinjt" pershesh... por qe me ne fund e shikon se opinioni i kthehet kundra..."terhiqet" dhe mundohet ta " pergjithesoje" dhe te kerkoje "ndihme" nga aleatet...

Te thashe edhe njehere qe shkruajta ketu ne kete teme, per faktin qe dikush publikoi nje shkrim te njeanshem, dhe mbi te gjitha nje absurditet kur behet krahasimi midis nje SHTETI dhe nje bashkesie KOMBESH te PAVARUR EUROPIANE, dhe cdo gje personifikohet me menyren e te sjellurit te disa shteteve qe per nje ose nje tjeter arsyeje ekonomike kundershtojne politiken amerikane, dhe harrohen te permenden shtete qe per fatin e keq te autorit nuk ndodhet ne "main land" por qe per fatin e mire te USA bo ben ate POLITIKE qe kjo e fundit nuk mund ta beje dot, dhe po luan rolin e ndermjetesit ne te tere problemet dhe MISH-MASHET qe USA krijon. E pra ky shtet eshte ne Europe.

Pra absurditete te nje krahasimi per mendimin tim nuk kane efektin qe duhet te kene por, i fryne politikes se brrylave...

Gjithsesi jo cdo gje eshte e zeze sikurse duket ne distance, dhe jo cdo gje eshte e bardhe...

[Albo]

kundraRRYMES, 11 000 pleq e plaka vdiqen ne France kete vere sepse Franca nuk deshiron "te mesoje nga Amerika" dhe te perdori kondicionere qe e heqin vapen. Arsyeja, energjia elektrike eshte e kufizuar dhe te mbash nje kondicioner ndezur vete shume shtrenjte.

Arsyeja e vertete eshte se Franca ka nenshkruar mareveshjen e Kiotos per ambientin qe kufizon mundesite e nje shteti per investuar ne centrale atomike per te prodhuar energji elektrike te bollshme dhe me kosto te ulet. Kete e kane bere pasi "duan te mbrojne ambientin", por jo pleqte e plakat.

Te na rroje ideologjia, pasi ka pleq e plaka plot Franca. Kasapana e Frances eshte 150 here me e madhe se kasapana e luftes ne Irak, aqsa qeveria franceze gjen kohe te akuzoje qeverine amerikane, por nuk guxon te pranoje kasapanen qe shkaktoi me qendrimet e saj ne France.

Ky eshte vetem episodi i rradhes i mentalitetit te kohes se gurit ne Europe.