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  1. #1
    Perjashtuar Maska e land
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    12-12-2003
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    Lufta II botrore dhe roli i amve n t

    DOCUMENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF CHAM ALBANIANS

    IN EXILE, ON GREEK PERSECUTION OF THE CHAMS, SUBMITTED TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION OF THE UNITED NATIONS IN 1945


    We, the Anti-Fascist Committee of Cham immigrants in Albania, having faith in the democratic and humanitarian principles of the UN, and acting in the name of Cham immigrants in Albania, do hereby address the Investigating Commission concerning our lost rights, oppression, persecutions and massacres committed by Greek Fascists in order to exterminate the Albanian minority in Greece.

    In pursuit of the protests and appeals that we have addressed to the Great Allies and the United Nations, we ask for justice with regard to the following:

    For 32 years in succession, Greek chauvinist and reactionary cliques, in brutal violation of every humanitarian principle, and in total disregard of international treaties, have carried out a policy of extermination toward the Albanian minority in Greece.

    Beginning with the Greek occupation of Chamria on February 23, 1913, the gang of Deli Janaqi, incited and assisted by the local authorities, massacred without cause whatsoever 72 men, in the brook of Selani, district of Paramithia.

    This massacre marked the beginning of the drive to exterminate the Albanian minority, and made clear the orientation of Greek policy toward our population.

    The hounding, persecutions, imprisonment, internment, tortures, and plunder carried out on the pretext of disarming [the population] in the years 1914-1921, the terrorist actions of outlaws, and the provocations of Gjen Baire in 1921, reveal the reality of the sufferings to which our population was subjected during the Greek occupation.

    Koska, Lopsi, Varfanj, Karbunari, Kardhiqi, Paramithija, Marglli, Arpica, Grykohori, and others, are some of the villages that paid an especially high price as a consequence of the terror.

    In 1922-1923, the Greek authorities decided to displace the Moslem element of Chamria, in exchange for the Greeks in Asia Minor, on the pretext that we were Turks. This shameless act of the Athenian authorities ran into opposition on our part and the intervention of the League of Nations which, upon ascertaining the Albanian nationality of our people, rejected the decision of the Greek Government.

    But despite the intervention of the League of Nations, and the solemn commitments undertaken by the Greek Government in Lausanne on January 16, 1923, the authorities in Athens continued their policy of extermination. They resorted to every device to make it difficult for the Albanian element to remain in Chamria, and confiscated 6,000 hectares of land owned by hundreds of families in Dushk, Gumenic, Kardhiq, Karbunar, and others, without compensating them in the least.

    The government in Athens settled the immigrants from Asia Minor in Chamria, with the intention of peopling it with Greeks and creating conditions that would lead to the emigration of the autochthonous Albanian population.

    Entire families were forced to abandon their birthplace and migrate to Turkey, Albania, America and elsewhere, and villages like Petrovica and Shendellia were deserted completely by their Albanian inhabitants.

    Under these circumstances, we did not enjoy any national rights, not even the use of our mother tongue. Fanaticism and ignorance were given support, instead of developing our national culture and stimulating progress. Instead of opening schools, they subsidized religious clubs in the Arab language. Ninety-five percent of our population remained illiterate. The province of Chamria, a fertile and prosperous land, remained backward, without economic development, without communication facilities, and in the hands of money-lenders and monopolists, such as: Kooni, Pitulejt, Kufalla, Zhulla, Ringa and others, who impoverished and enslaved the entire region.

    In the war against Fascism, and more precisely at its conclusion, the reactionary Monarcho-Fascist forces of Llak of Suli, which were created by the reaction to serve the occupier under the command of General Napoleon Zerva, turned on and treacherously massacred the Moslem Albanian inhabitants of Chamria.

    At that time, when the troops of ELAS [National Popular Liberation Army] and our troops were committed to fighting the Germans, the leadership of EOEA [National Troops of Greek Guerrilas], in league with the Germans, maneuvered to gain positions to fight a civil war. And when our forces, in keeping with the spirit and decisions of the protocol of Kasart (Sarafis-Zerva), August, 1944, implemented the orders of the Joint Command in pursuit of the Germans, General Napoleon Zerva, commander of the resistance forces in Epir (ELAS EOEA), gave orders to massacre the innocent population of Chamria.

    The massacres in Chamria were a flagrant violation of humanitarian principles, and a shameless disregard for the principles and the nature of the Anti-Fascist struggle. The massacres in Chamria were a result of the collaboration and agreements with the Germans, who in the process of retreating, let Zervas forces take their place. Here is a concrete example of the collaboration between Zervas forces and the Germans. Theodhor Vito, the commander of the Zerva forces in the district of Filat, met the commander of the retreating German forces on September 22, 1944 in the village of Panaromen, 3 km. from Filat, just one day before the entrance of Zervas forces in Filat. Right after that meeting, and even before the German forces cleared out of Filat entirely, the forces of Theodhor Vito entered Filat. That close collaboration strengthened the position of the Zerva forces, and enabled them to initiate the terror and the massacres on a broad scale in all the districts of Chamria.

    The forces of the X th Division of EOEA, under the command of Col. Vasil Kamaras, and specifically the XVI th Regiment of that division, which was led by Kranja and his aides Lefter Strugari, attorney Stavropullos Ballumi Zotos, the notorious criminals Patazejt and others, entered the town of Paramithia on June 27, 1944. Contrary to their promises and the agreement arrived at between mufti Hasan Abdullaj, on the one hand, and Shapera and the Bishop of Paramithia, on the other, who acted as agents of Zerva, the most ignoble massacres were set in motion. Defenseless men, women and children became targets for the Greek Monarcho-Fascists. The number of the massacred in the town of Paramithia and vicinity reached 600 souls.

    On July 28, 1944 the forces of Regiment Nr. 40, commanded by Agores, entered Parg and massacred 52 men, women and children.

    The forces of EOEA under the command of Theodhor Vito, Ilija Kaqo, Hristo Mavrudhi, Hristo Kaqo, Hari Dhiamanti and others, first encircled the town of Filat, then on Saturday morning of September 23, 1944 entered the town. The same day they also entered Spatr. They plundered and seized all of the families, and whatever else they found. On the eve of [September] 23 and the dawn of September 24, 1944 there entered also the forces commanded by Kranja, Strugari and others. As soon as these forces arrived, the massacres began. Forty-seven men, women and children were massacred in Filat, while 157 were killed or missing in Spasar, many of whom had gone there from other villages. All of the young women and girls were abused and raped by Zervas criminals. A few days later the Monarcho-Fascists rounded up all of the men that remained, and following the decision of a kangaroo court, consisting of Koinja president, Staropull prosecuting attorney, and four other members, 47 innocent Albanians were massacred. In Granic of Filat are buried the corpses of 46 persons who were slain with knives, and 45 others on the plain bordering the field of Xhelo Meto.

    Other families were wiped out, including parents, children and babies in their cribs. Women and young girls were raped. Hundreds of declarations by those who survived, describe the killings and endless suffering. They make plain the crimes and aims of the Monarcho-Fascists in Chamria.

    Here are some examples:
    Sanie Bollati of Paramithia was burned alive with gasoline, after her breasts were cut off, and her eyes were plucked out. Ymer Murati was murdered and his body was chopped up in Paramithia.

    In the house of Sulo Tari had gathered more than 40 women. ili Popova from Popova, wearing a military uniform, and a group of soldiers, entered the house, seized the prettiest women and girls and began to rape them in another room. The screams of the girls and the women were deafening. This debauchery continued all night. Seri Fejzo, Fizret Sulo Tare and others, were victims of their baseness.

    Hilmi Beqiri of Filat was wounded in front of his family and left there, as the attackers took off. Wanting to shelter him, the family brought him over to dentist Mavrudhiu. He kept him for a few hours, but later sent word to have him taken away. The family then took him to Stavro Muhaxhiri, after which they went over to Shuaip Metja, where many other families had gathered. Andartt [Greek irregulars Translators note] were informed about this, and they went over and seized him, and after pulling his gold teeth with pliers, killed him.

    Malo Muho, an 80-year-old man, who had been ailing for four years, was butchered with a hatchet in front of his wife. His brain splattered on the lap of his wife, who gathered them together, and after covering him with a quilt, ran away.

    Abdyl Nurqe was seized in Spatar and taken barefooted to Filat, where he was dragged through the streets of the town, and finally killed in front of the house of Nidh Tafoqi.

    The family of Lile Rustemi from Sullashi, numbering 16 persons, most of them children, was totally wiped out, without anyone being able to survive.

    Xhelal Miniti of Paramithia was beheaded with a bayonet over the body of mufti Hasan Abdullahu.

    Sali Muhedini, Abedin Bakos, Muhamet Pronj and Malo Sejdiu had their fingers, nose, tongue, and feet cut off, and while they screamed with pain, andartt of Zerva sang the song of their commander, and rejoiced as they witnessed this scene of terror. In the end, they hung them with butchers grappling irons.

    Following is the declaration of Eshref Himi, a resident of Paramithia, concerning the massacres in Paramithia:

    On Tuesday, June 27, 1944, at 7 in the morning, the Greek Monarcho-Fascists entered Paramithia, commanded by Col. Kamora, Major Kranja, Captain Kristo Stavropulli, an attorney; Captain Lefter Strugari, attorney; sub-lieutenant Nikolla enos, and others. As soon as they entered the city, the order was given that no one should leave, because no ones honor, liberty or property would be threatened in any way. Immediately in the afternoon, there began the arrest of men, women and children, and thievery as well. By next morning all the men were murdered.

    After imprisoning me for four days, they let me go, so as to bury the dead. On the site called The Church of Ajorgji, I was able to identify five of the bodies. The others were beyond recognition, on account of the tortures inflicted on them. The five victims I was able to identify were: Met Qere, Sami Asimi, Mahmut Kupi, Adem Beqiri, Haki Mile. Two days later, they sent me over to Golataj, near the house of Dhimitr Nikolla, where they had murdered 8 people. I could not recognize them, because they had cut them to pieces. All around there were corpses of people. A woman by the name of Sanie Bollati was subjected to frightful tortures and burned alive with gasoline. This tragedy took place on Wednesday, while on Friday morning her body was moved away, covered with a blanket by her mother and two townspeople, and placed in a cellar by order of the Monarcho-Fascists, who would not let anyone to see her. The wretched woman died there five days later. By then, her cadaver was full of maggots.

    All of the things I declare here, I have seen with my own eyes. At first, I hid for five days on top of a ceiling, but was arrested by the Monarcho-Fascists and turned over to Major Kranja who, after questioning me briefly, ordered that I be imprisoned. In prison I found 380 persons, including women and children. One hundred twenty of those died of starvation. Four persons and me were in prison for 15 days, after which they transported us to Prevez, and from there to Janin, where we stayed for 40 days. There we were subjected to indescribable tortures. We were freed after the arrival in this town of troops of the EAM [National Liberation Front].

    Dervish Sulo from the village of Spatar in [the district of] Filat, describes the massacres in Spatar as follows:

    In the morning of a Saturday in September, 1944, the entire population gathered in front of the (Spatar) village mosque. The soldiers began seizing and raping women, girls, and even old women. Pae ulani, 50 years of age, was raped, her hair was cut and even her ears, and finally she was killed in her own orchard, in the vicinity of Muo. In our house was installed the family of Sako Banushi from Skropjona, which numbered eight women, men, and children. After raping the women, whose breasts were pierced with knives, all were massacred.

    In the house of Damin Muhameti, 5 women and 3 children were killed.In the house of Fetin Muhameti, Hane Isufi and another woman were tortured and raped.
    In the house of Dule Sherifi, they cut off the heads of 80-year-old Sulejman Dhimic and his wife. In the house of Meto Braho, 20 persons, including men, women and children, were burned alive.Kije Nuria, 70 years of age, was knifed to death.In the vineyard of Zule and the garden of Avdyl Nure, I saw 20 people who had been massacred.In the house of Haxhi Latifi, the daughter of Haxhi Gulani was raped, while in the dwelling of Mejdi Meto, Hava Ajshja was raped, and Nano Arapi was both raped and killed.

    According to statistics available to date, the victims and the missing among the Albanian minority in Greece, during the massacres in the years 1944-1945, number 2,877, broken down as follows:

    Filat and vicinity, 1, 286; Gumenic and vicinity, 192; Paramithia and vicinity, 673; and Magell and Parg, 626. This was the fate of all those who were unable to flee Chamria, with the exception of a few women who are today living witnesses of the chilling massacres in Paramithia, Parg, Spatar, and Filat. The words that come from their mouths make clear the naked criminality and barbaric acts, organized by the Greek Monarcho-Fascist reaction in Chamria.

    This carnage, inspired by the basest sentiments of chauvinistic and religious hatred, resulted in the displacement of nearly 23,000 Chams, who afterward found shelter in Albania under the most miserable conditions.

    A total of 68 villages with over 5,800 houses, were seized, destroyed and burned down.

    An account of the damages reveals that the Monarcho-Fascist forces of Zerva seized the following assets left behind [by the Chams] in Chamria: 17,000 heads of sheep and goats, 1,200 heads of cattle, 21,000 kv [kuintals 1 kv. equals 100 kg. Translators note] of cereals, and 80,000 kv of [olive] oil; plus the product of the year 1944-1945, which totaled 11,000,000 kg. of cereals, and 3,000,000 kg of [olive]oil. During the emigration, 110,000 sheep and goats, and 2,400 cattle died or were lost.

    This shows clearly the economic catastrophe that befell our people, which was forced to take the roads of immigration with only the clothes on their back.

    This catastrophe happened because our people, together with the Greek people, fought alongside the EAM, rather than jump in the camp of the collaborationists who were allied with the occupiers.

    Chamria contributed materially and morally to the great Anti-Fascist war. Hundreds of young ams joined the ranks of ELAS, when EAM sounded the alarm for freedom. With the broadening of the Anti-Fascist war against the German occupiers, the population of Chamria threw itself unreservedly in the war against the occupier, and formed the Fourth Battalion of the XV th Regiment of ELAS. Out of the small population of Chamria, stepped forward over 500 troops who fought with determination against the Nazi-Fascist occupiers and the traitors in the camp of Zerva.

    The blood of the national hero, Ali Demi, and of the martyr Bido Sejko; and the blood of martyrs Muharrem Myrtezaj, Ibrahim Hallumi,Hysen Vejseli and others, that was shed together with that of the Greek Partisans at the Pass of Qeramic, bears out this fact.

    In Chamria at the end of the war, the troops commanded by General Napoleon Zervas operated in our districts and villages not as liberators, but as executioners and sworn enemies of the Albanian element.

    In accordance with the Agreement of Caserta (Sarafi Zervas) in August, 1944, the troops of the resistance were placed on a common front against the Nazi armies, under a joint command, in designated operational zones. This agreement was violated in Chamria. Zervas troops compromised with the Germans, and attacked our troops and obstructed the activity of the IV th Battalion of the XV th Regiment in the zone of Filat. The operations and massacres in the district of Filat are directly connected with this situation, and in open contradiction to the trust and spirit of cooperation established in Caserta. The last village of Chamria, Koska, which was one of the bases for organizing the resistance forces of the National-Liberation Front in Chamria, was destroyed and burned. It was the final action in the destruction of Chamria.

    A Commission of the Cham Anti-Fascist Council was dispatched to Athens on 10/30/1944, to meet with the Greek Government of Papandreu, and protest against the massacres in Chamria, as well as demand that they be condemned. The Government of Papandreu refused to take any measures, or commit itself in any way regarding this matter.

    Following the operations of December, 1944 and the liberation of Chamria from the Zervist occupation, a portion of our population was repatriated and settled in the district of Filat. Then, on March 12, 1945 government forces of the garrison of Corfu, in violation of the Agreement of Varkiz (February, 1945), organized and treacherously carried out the vile massacres in Vanre (Filat). This exposed once again the attitude and policy of the responsible authorities of the Greek Government, concerning the extermination of the Albanian population of CHAMRIA.

    In the wake of our immigration to Albania, the democratic Government of Albania gave to our masses boundless material and moral assistance. A fund of 240,000 francs was set aside by the Albanian Government for our people, and all-round efforts have been made to alleviate our deplorable condition.

    Responding to this situation, the UNNRA Mission in Albania won approval from its headquarters in Washington [D.C.], to dispense 1,450,000 dollars as immediate relief to the immigrants, in view of our difficult situation.

    Even in these conditions, the Cham immigrants continued to contribute more and more to the Front. At the Conference of Shals (Konispol), held at the end of September, 1944, the voice of the Chams in exile was raised strongly in favor of collaboration against the occupier, and the injustices of the Greek Monarcho-Fascists.

    At the Congress of Vlor on September 23, 1945 the Cham delegates, who represented all the groups of Cham immigrants in Albania, spoke against the massacres that Greek Monarcho-Fascists had perpetrated among them, and demanded by means of memoranda addressed to the London Conference, an inquiry into their problem, and the condemnation of those responsible for the pointless bloodshed and immeasurable sufferings in Chamria. The Congress concluded with a resolution summarizing all of its proceedings.

    While in exile, we have many times addressed appeals to the world, regarding the rights that have been denied us, and asked for repatriation.

    On October 30, 1944 the Cham Anti-Fascist Council addressed a protest note to the Greek Government of National Unity, the Mediterranean Chief-of-Staff, the Allied Government, and the Central Committee of EAM, discussing the barbaric actions of Greek Fascists in Chamria.

    On May 9, 1945 the Cham Anti-Fascist Council dispatched to the Military Missions a copy of the telegram addressed to the President of the Conference in San Francisco, concerning the rights of the Chams, based on the Atlantic Charter.

    On June 27, 1945 telegrams of protest by the Cham Anti-Fascist Council, against the massacres in Chamria, were addressed to the Democratic Government of Albania, the Allied Military Missions including the Soviet, the English, the American, the French, and the Czechoslovak; the Yugoslav Legation, and the Albanians in America, Italy and Bulgaria.

    A memorandum was addressed to Mr. Hutchinson, Labor [Party] Deputy in Great Britain, on 11/26/1945.

    Telegrams were addressed to the General Directorate of UNRRA, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee (9/25/1945), asking for aid.

    A memorandum was addressed to the Presidency of the Conference of Allied Foreign Ministers in London, by the delegates of the Cham Congress, in September, 1945.

    A memorandum was addressed to the Assembly of the United Nations in London, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee, on January 11, 1946, bringing up again the issue of the massacres, and asking for the rights due [the Chams].

    A memorandum was addressed to the United Nations Assembly in New York, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee on October 25, 1946 and later.

    We are victims of the Monarchist regime that reigns in Greece today. Together with the fraternal Greek people, we are suffering the consequences of the dark terror that was inflicted on them throughout Greece.

    For two and a half years now, we roam Albania in misery, away from the Fatherland, while our fertile lands are exploited unjustly by the agents of the Monarcho-Fascists in Chamria.

    Our travails in exile have been, and continue to be without bounds. Thousands have perished owing to the situation that has come into being.

    Despite our protests and the rights to which we are entitled, we continue to live in exile, while the Greek Government, without any justification, is busy quartering alien inhabitants in our Chamria, in order to prevent our return.

    In the name of our people, we protest once again against all these things, and present before the Investigating Committee of the UNO Security Council, the [issue of the] tragedy that has taken place in Chamria, drawing attention to the barbaric acts carried out with the intention of wiping out the Cham people.

    We stress the need for a speedy resolution of the Cham problem, and being persuaded that our demands will be met, we set them forth, as follows:

    1. That immediate steps be taken to prevent the settling of foreign elements in our homes.

    2. That all Chams be repatriated.

    3. That all our properties be returned [to us] and all damages to real and moveable properties of ours be compensated.

    4. That assistance be given to rebuild our homes and resettle [our people].

    5. That steps be taken to insure the benefits that derive from international treaties and mandates, such as the security of civil, political, and cultural rights, and the security of the person.

    6. That all persons responsible for crimes committed be tried and punished.

    With our most distinguished considerations:

    THE ANTI-FASCIST COMMITTEE OF CHAM IMMIGRANTS

    Taho Sejko Kasm Demi Rexhep ami

    Tahir Demi Vehip Demi Dervish Dojaka

    Hilmi Seiti

  2. #2
    Larguar.
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    Harrove te shkruash: Vdekje Fashizmit, Liri Popullit

  3. #3
    Drinbach Maska e DYDRINAS
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    17-02-2005
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    Harrove te shkruash: Vdekje Fashizmit, Liri Popullit

    Ty me sa duket ne cdo teme qe permendet genocidi grek kunder shqiptareve si ne tokat e pushtuara ashtu dhe ne Shqiperine e sotme, sikur te shtyn dikush nga prapa e te thote: "Ja na doli dhe nje teme antigreke, sulu qe te shmangesh qellimin per te cilin eshte hapur ajo!".

    Kushdo qofsh e ku do qofsh, duhet ta kesh te qarte se kombi shqiptar eshte ne ringritje te vazhdueshme dhe se per disa dekada ai do te jete kombi me i madh ne Ballkan.

    Kjo eshte ajo qe e detyron grekun qe te ushtroje trysni ne te gjitha drejtimet, per t'ja ulur ne minimum energjine kombit shqiptar.

    Normalisht se kur lexon vazhdimisht te njejtat faqe te shkruara dhe te rishkruara me te njejten gjuhe dhe mendesi, te shkruara me gjuhe urrejtje dhe mendjemadhesie neveritese bizantino-prehistorike greke, keshtu dhe do te lehesh sepse ti e di mire ate shprehjen se qeni leh aty ku ha!

    Ketu ne forum eshte i njohur qendrimi yt dhe i nje grupimi tjeter virtual, qe nuk lene fjale e shkrim pa sulmuar sa here qe ne kompjuter shfaqet fjala "grek", "genocid", "spastrim etnik", "shkombetarizim" etj.

    Nuk mundesh dot te mbash nje qendrim tjeter, te pakten asnjanes ne tema te
    tilla te ndjeshme.

    Shqiptaret nuk e urrejne popullin grek, por ata urrejne politikat e nxitura dhe te paguara nga qarqe ekstremiste politiko-fetare greke, brenda dhe jashte Greqise, politika qe jane driteshkurtera dhe qe jane te percaktuara te deshtojne.

    Do te vije Dita e Arberit!

  4. #4
    Southern Prince Maska e Pyrrhus_Mollos
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    Pajtohem Krejtesisht me Dydrinasin
    Tannhauser, shko leh diku tjeter, Epiri eshte Shqiptar

  5. #5
    Deny Ignorance Maska e Darius
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    Harrove te shkruash: Vdekje Fashizmit, Liri Popullit
    Po ti mos harrove valle ata te vrare e te masakruar dhe po te dhembin syte nga mungesa e Vdekje Fashizmit, Liri Popullit?
    Nese i ke 'harruar' ti si kemi harruar ne dhe ata qe i pane me sy dhe i kaluan kujtimet neper breza. Te ironizosh dhe te besh sikur debaton per fakte te historise se lashte eshte nje gje por te aprovosh nje genoci dhe mizori te tille ne shekullin e 20-te te ben ty dhe te tjeret si ty jo me te mire se ata qe e aplikuan.

    Mesa kemi komunikuar ketu kam mesuar se je ne moshe, shume me i madh se une po nje fjale ta them: Turp te te vije !

  6. #6
    Southern Prince Maska e Pyrrhus_Mollos
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    Tipa si Tannhauser "e hane turpin me buke" Darius dhe nuk dine as llogjike e as emocion.
    AM 24 KARAT

  7. #7
    i/e regjistruar
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    Edhe une them shekulli 21 eshte i yni

    ka ila edhe per keta persona si me siper

    por a duhet mi ja u kafen edhe peshqirin se pari
    "Un jam mir kur asht mir Shqipnia"

    Je vais bien quand l'Albanie va bien

  8. #8
    Larguar.
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    Citim Postuar m par nga Darius
    Po ti mos harrove valle ata te vrare e te masakruar dhe po te dhembin syte nga mungesa e Vdekje Fashizmit, Liri Popullit?
    Nese i ke 'harruar' ti si kemi harruar ne dhe ata qe i pane me sy dhe i kaluan kujtimet neper breza. Te ironizosh dhe te besh sikur debaton per fakte te historise se lashte eshte nje gje por te aprovosh nje genoci dhe mizori te tille ne shekullin e 20-te te ben ty dhe te tjeret si ty jo me te mire se ata qe e aplikuan.

    Mesa kemi komunikuar ketu kam mesuar se je ne moshe, shume me i madh se une po nje fjale ta them: Turp te te vije !
    Une skam harruar asgje, madje edhe ato qe i harrojne te tjeret une e kam si detyre tua kujtoj. Une e pranoj gjenocidin kunder cameve, por pranoj edhe krimet e miliceve came dhe padroneve te tyre Italiane kunder grekeve. Se po te mos bashkepunonin camet me italianet dhe ti shikonin si shpetimtare nuk kishte pse Zerva (shenim ketu se ka qene suliot) ti ndiqte.

    Pra, bukur ben qe i trajton pasojat, por nuk te pash ty apo ndonje tjeter te trajtoje shkakun.

    C'fare do qe te shkruaj une ne kete forum ti te njejtin qendrim do mbash, dhe ne te gjitha postimet do shikosh mllef, ironi etj.

    Prandaj turp te te vij ty qe ne baze te nacionalizmit tend, kritikon te tjeret dhe turp te te vije se fatkeqesine e cameve dhe dhembjen e tyre e perdor per te mbeshtetur antigreqizmin tend.

  9. #9
    Deny Ignorance Maska e Darius
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    Nacionalizmi im? Te kisha qene nacionalist sic thua, ti dhe te tjere si ty nuk do puthnin ketu. Ti pranon genocidin grek ndaj cameve dhe ne te njejten kohe e justifikon me perrallen greke te bashkepunimit te tyre ne fashistet? Kerkon shkakun ti? Po shko pak mbrapa ne kohe qe ne fillim te shekullit te 20-te dhe e gjen shkakun. Atehere skishte bashkepunim me italianet po kishte me turqit right?
    UNe sjam antigrek, jam pro shqiptar se jam shqiptar. Kete ngulite mire ne koke !

  10. #10
    Larguar.
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    Citim Postuar m par nga Darius
    Nacionalizmi im? Te kisha qene nacionalist sic thua, ti dhe te tjere si ty nuk do puthnin ketu.
    Argument serjoz! Meqe nuk me perjashton me tregon se nuk je nacionalist?

    Ti pranon genocidin grek ndaj cameve dhe ne te njejten kohe e justifikon me perrallen greke te bashkepunimit te tyre ne fashistet?
    Peralle? Ne gazeta shqiptare te kohes (Bashkimi i Kombit) krenoheshin camet me greket qe pushkatuar dhe me shtepite qe kishin djegur. Vellezerit Dino c'fare ishin, nuk ishin came? Do te ti numeroj krimet e cameve nje nga nje? Sigurisht qe toleranca jote deri atje arrin, pra deri te me lejoje pjesmarrjen ne forum, jo te tregoj krimet e luftes se cameve (te cilet sipas teje jane a priori propagande greke). Camet paten fatin e popullsive te tjera te evropes qe bashkepunuan me boshtin, prandaj dhe 2100 came u akuzuan per krime lufte dhe per kete arsye u konfiskuan pronat.

    Kerkon shkakun ti? Po shko pak mbrapa ne kohe qe ne fillim te shekullit te 20-te dhe e gjen shkakun. Atehere skishte bashkepunim me italianet po kishte me turqit right?
    Right, do dhe referencen nga prof. S. Skendi ku e thote shkoqur se camet me 1912 luftuan krahas turqve kur greket clironin Epirin? E Ke tek libri 'The Albanian National Awakening'. Neser do kesh dhe faqet se nuk i mbaj mend.

    UNe sjam antigrek, jam pro shqiptar se jam shqiptar. Kete ngulite mire ne koke !
    Asnjeri nuk tha se je dicka tjeter dhe jo shqiptar. Menyra e reagimit tregon se vetem me antigreqizmin tend identifikohesh si shqiptar gje qe eshte e natyrshme midis nacionalisteve.

  11. #11
    Deny Ignorance Maska e Darius
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    Kesaj i thone tamam te spekullosh me fjalet dhe te pertypesh faktet historike si te te vije per mbare. Ta leme menjeane 'nacionalizmin' tim qe mos kthehemi ne qesharake. Pash zotin se u be argument boze dhe i neveritshem. Ne fund te fundit dhe nese ekzstion eshte i pademshem dhe nuk pret as koka dhe as ben thirrje per litare zorresh.

    Krenoheshin camet qe pushkatuan greket, dakort. Sa came? 10, 50 apo 100. Apo 1 mije? (qe sben vaki sidoqofte)? Dhe kjo justifikon masakren dhe shpernguljen me dhune te nje popullsie te tere? Justifikon grabitjet e pasurive te tyre dhe zevendesimin e pronareve legjitime me njerez te ardhur? Dhe ti pret te te marrin seriozisht me kete procke qe shkruan? Pra nese e marrim per te qene argumentin tend i bie qe reagimi i qeverise greke te jete nga me te paprecedentet ne historine moderne. Per HAKMARRJE ndaj bashkepunimit te disa elementeve te nje popullsie me fashistet ajo denigron, ben genocid dhe perze gjithe popullsine. Nese marrim te qene kete atehere ky eshte akti me barbar i nje qeverie ndaj nje pjese te popullates. Dhe kjo barbari stepash ka vetem nje emer, GENOCID.

    Me permend bashkepunimin me turqit dhe prape i rreshket temes me argumenta pa rendesi. Po ne 1914-1921 kishte bashkepunim me turqit? Po ne 1923? A e kupton qe nuk mban jo uje po as krunde ajo sita jote. Pse duhet te pergjigjesh me vrap kur shume mire mund te ulesh koken dhe te mos flasesh per nje faqe kaq te turpshme te nacionalizmit te semure grek dhe si historian qe je te shikosh faktet historike ne sy sic jane.

    Dhe me akuzon mua per nacionalizem. Ca skandali, une ne fund te fundit as po dal me teorira dhe as po evidentoj gje. Thjesht komentova ate qe te paret e tu kane shkruar me kamzhik, bajonete dhe gjak. Perseri po ta them Te komentosh nje ngjarje historike sipas kendveshtrimit personal ska asgje te keqe por ta mohosh nje ngjarje te tille kjo eshte paturpesi dhe shovinizem.

    Me vjen per te qeshur kur nga goja e nje greku ose greqishtfolesi del fjala nacionalist si akuze ndaj shqiptareve. Ne ka komb qe duhet te turperohet per nacionalizmin e tyre te semure (me pasoja skandaloze ndaj fqinjeve dhe popullsive te tjera) ai eshte kombi grek. Nese pretendohet te ndertohet nje miqesi midis dy popujve kjo nuk behet duke mohuar historine apo duke i kthyer krahet te kaluares. Po nuk u riparua e kaluara nuk ka te ardhme.

  12. #12
    Larguar
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    Genocidi grek mbi camet eshte nje gangrene qe do t'i marre shpirtin pak nga pak grekut.Nuk ka nga ja mban dhe do ti neneshtrohet ligjeve nderkombetare dhe do t'i jape zgjidhjen qe duhet per t e rivene ne nivelin e duhur edhe anen psikologjike te cameve qe i shpetuan pergjakjes se pabese.
    Bile edhe po u zgjidh ky problem nuk do te ndalojme kurre t'i kerkojme grekut te kerkoje falje perdite ne te gjitha institucionet shteterore sidomos ne ato me carakter kulturor ose politik,para cdo feste fetare nepermjet tv ne gjuhen letrare shqipe dhe ne anglishten(americane) gjersa te bindemi qe e ka marre vesh e gjithe bota se greku po i puth kembet cameve per te mos lejuar keshtu rezikun e nje hakmarrje qe po rritet dhe qe po pergatit nje rindarje te pergjakeshme ne ballkan dhe qe greqia do te jete tabele qitjeje ndaj.
    _Nje gje nuk duhet harruar nuk ka popull qe harron genocidin ,fqinje te padenje greke pune eshte qe ne nje genocid nuk duhet te lesh asnje gjurme populli,ndryshe do te vije radha jote dhe tjetri s'ben gabime te njejta.

    Ne duam (shqipetaret dhe camet ne vecanti)mardhenie te mira me vendet fqinje.
    Bujrum greke ndalojeni genocidin e ri qe po iu troket ne dere erdhi dita e shqiptarin frikesohuni me te drejte frikesohuni .

    __________________________________________________ ___________
    Damian: Nderro firmen!!!
    Ndryshuar pr her t fundit nga D@mian : 17-03-2007 m 00:36

  13. #13
    Larguar.
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    Krenoheshin camet qe pushkatuan greket, dakort. Sa came? 10, 50 apo 100. Apo 1 mije? (qe sben vaki sidoqofte)? Dhe kjo justifikon masakren dhe shpernguljen me dhune te nje popullsie te tere? Justifikon grabitjet e pasurive te tyre dhe zevendesimin e pronareve legjitime me njerez te ardhur? Dhe ti pret te te marrin seriozisht me kete procke qe shkruan? Pra nese e marrim per te qene argumentin tend i bie qe reagimi i qeverise greke te jete nga me te paprecedentet ne historine moderne. Per HAKMARRJE ndaj bashkepunimit te disa elementeve te nje popullsie me fashistet ajo denigron, ben genocid dhe perze gjithe popullsine. Nese marrim te qene kete atehere ky eshte akti me barbar i nje qeverie ndaj nje pjese te popullates. Dhe kjo barbari stepash ka vetem nje emer, GENOCID.
    Me te vertete habitem, por e kam durimin te te shpjegoj disa gjera. Kur une them se e kuptoj pse greket e Zerves bene gjenocid kjo nuk do te thote se une i justifikoj aktin e tyre. Njeri jam, ve ne perdorim llogjiken kam faktet dhe nxjer konkluzione. Kjo me dallon nga qeniet e tjera. Keshtu pra mund ta gjej shkakun dhe ta kuptoj. Por kjo nuk do te thote se bashkohem me te dhe kam te njejtin mendim. Nje inspektor i kriminalistikes, nje psikolog mund ti kuptoje arsyet pse nje kriminel reagon ne menyren qe reagon. Kjo nuk do te thote se justifikon kriminelin. E kuptove diferencen Darius apo ta bej me shkoqur?

    E dyta eshte se ne perjudhen qe u be gjenocidi cam nuk ka patur qeveri greke ne Greqi. Shumicen derrmuese te vendit e kontrollonin forcat partizane komuniste greke dhe ne krahinen e Epirit ishin forca komuniste dhe nacionaliste. Vetem me perfundimin e luftes civile, me 1949, qeveria greke vuri nen kontroll te gjithe territorin grek. Pra meso njehere histori dhe pastaj akuzo qeverine greke. Pastaj, te akuzuarit per krime lufte nuk ishin as 10 as 50 por ishin 2100 te cilet u arratisen bashke me familjet. Ne qofte se supozojme se nje familje kishte 5 veta menjehere na del ne shesh gjysma e popullsise came.

    Po ne 1914-1921 kishte bashkepunim me turqit? Po ne 1923? A e kupton qe nuk mban jo uje po as krunde ajo sita jote. Pse duhet te pergjigjesh me vrap kur shume mire mund te ulesh koken dhe te mos flasesh per nje faqe kaq te turpshme te nacionalizmit te semure grek dhe si historian qe je te shikosh faktet historike ne sy sic jane.
    Ketu bien poshte argumentet e tua. Se po te qe qe grekerit nuk i deshen camet apo planifikonin gjenocid kunder tyre do ta benin gjenocidin qe ne 1912 dhe nuk do mbanin asnje cam ne Geqi. Por jo vetem i mbajten camet ne Greqi por edhe i perjashtuan nga Marreveshja e Llozanes (1923). Me ketee marreveshje Greqia kishte te drejte ti dergonte si myslimane ne Turqi. Por nuk e beri se u njohu karakterin shqiptar te tyre.

    Por camet i pane si clirues italianet dhe enderronin Shqiperi te Madhe. Nuk eshte nje realitet ky?

    Me vjen per te qeshur kur nga goja e nje greku ose greqishtfolesi del fjala nacionalist si akuze ndaj shqiptareve. Ne ka komb qe duhet te turperohet per nacionalizmin e tyre te semure (me pasoja skandaloze ndaj fqinjeve dhe popullsive te tjera) ai eshte kombi grek. Nese pretendohet te ndertohet nje miqesi midis dy popujve kjo nuk behet duke mohuar historine apo duke i kthyer krahet te kaluares. Po nuk u riparua e kaluara nuk ka te ardhme.
    Te ma thote ndonje fshatar i pa shkolluar kete hajde de, por te ma thuash ti qe je moderator ne nje forum ku shumica e temave historike kane te bejne me 'shqiperi etnike', 'shqiperi te medha', 'shqiperi akoma me te medha' dhe enderra te tjera eshte kulmi i ironise. Madje me harta qe fillojne ne nga sllovenia e mbarojne ne Peloponez...

    Irredentizmi grek ka marre fund qe ne vitin 1923, kurse ai shqiptar tani fillon.

  14. #14
    Deny Ignorance Maska e Darius
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    Spo te pergjigjem per kusurin se sja vlen. Eshte tamam loje fjalesh. Irredentizmi grek jo vetem qe ska mbaruar ndonjehere po eshte me aktiv se kurre nen rrogoz. Ndersa nga shqiptaret mos prit asnje irredentizem. Thjesht marrje mbrapsht e asaj qe i takon. Nese te paska vrare syri qe temat historike flasin per shqiperi etnike, shqiperi te madhe, shqiperi akoma me te medha (gje qe nuk eshte e vertete aspak dhe ska asnje teme qe te kete nje kontekst te tille pervec ndonje postimi te shkeputur) dhe endrra, ato jane tema te hapura nga anetaret shqiptare ne nje Forum Shqiptar. Sic nuk t'u ndalua ty e drejta e fjales kur hodhe helmin me kova per origjinen shqiptare, gjuhe shqiptare e kusur. Per me teper ti sje aspak ne pozicionin per te gjykuar punen e nje moderatori dhe as menyren sesi administrohet ky forum. Nuk eshte bere per nje Tannhauser po per gjithe shqiptaret. Dhe me e fundit si dhe me e rendesishmja, nese nuk e gjen veten tende te mirepritur ideologjikisht dhe nese ky forum te duket irredentist apo antigrek atehere mund te zgjedh mos frekuentimin dhe te qetesosh shpirtin tend te trazuar greqar ne ndonje forum grek ku sharjet, fyerjet dhe masakrimi i historise ndaj shqiptareve eshte i legjitimuar madje stimulohet me pasionin me te madh.

  15. #15
    i/e regjistruar Maska e tani_26
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    E verteta eshte diku ne mes pra ne nje fare menyre ato qe thote Tannhauser nuk jane te gjitha te paverteta...

    Persa i perket GENOCIDIT grek ndaj cameve eshte i pajustifikueshem dhe Tannhauser gabon kur e justifikon kete Genocid me faktin se nje pjese e Cameve bashkepunuan me fashizmin, nese Genocidi do te '' ligjerohej'' nga ky akt atehere edhe turqit kishin cdo te drejte te ushtronin genocidin ndaj popullsive greke te Azise se vogel dhe greket e sotem padrejtesisht e denojne kete gjenocid!

    Dhe me kryesorja eshte se ajo pjese e cameve qe baskepunoi me pushtuesit ne rastin konkret bashkepunoi me nje pushtues jo-shqiptar, imagjino te kishin bere pushtim shqiptaret cfare do kishin pesuar jo vetem shqiptaret por dhe jugu i Shqiperise!
    Nuk ka njerez te perkryer ka vetem qellime te perkryera!

  16. #16
    Deny Ignorance Maska e Darius
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    Tani faktet historike si ndryshojme dot dhe askush nuk po e ben ate gje, (aq me shume une). Une nuk mund te pajtohem me mohimin e tyre dhe sidomos interpretimin qe i behet. Personalisht per mua ska llogjike qe mund te justifikoje genocidin ndaj nje popullsie dhe argumenti qe pse 2 mije pjestare te kesaj popullsie ndihmuan fashizmin solli si rrjedhoje hakmarrjen greke ndaj shqiptareve te Camerise me duket cmenduri.

  17. #17
    Perjashtuar Maska e BARAT
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    tani_26
    E verteta eshte diku ne mes pra ne nje fare menyre ato qe thote Tannhauser nuk jane te gjitha te paverteta...
    fiks fare ne mes eshte o tan (26 jo hauzi)....
    Po pse nuk thone/tregojne se ci shtyu nje pjese te shqiptareve te camerise qe te bashkoheshin me gjermanet?



    shtja ame, shkelen Konventat


    Autori i Lajmit: Nga Ahmet Mehmeti
    N kohn e sotme Greqia sht shteti i vetm n Evrop, q shkel n mnyr flagrante disa nga konventat kryesore, mbi t cilat mbshtetet rendi i ri ndrkombtar. Kt shkelje t prbindshme m shum e ndien popullsia mbi 200.000-she shqiptare, e dbuar me dhun e genocid nga trojet e veta etnike n amri.
    Para 60 vjetsh, forcat m t errta t nacionalizmit grek, t nxitura nga qeveria e tyre dhe t drejtuara nga kriminelt e lufts, gjeneralt Zerva e Plastira, bn spastrimin etnik t amris nga pjesa e popullsis muslimane shqiptare. N kt veprimtari kriminale, rol aktiv ka luajtur edhe kisha greke bizantine me krert bashkpunetor t nazifashistve, Spiridhoni e Dhorotheu.
    Pastrimi etnik n amri kishte filluar qysh n vitin 1913 dhe ishte shoqruar me vrasje masive, ku vetm n vendin e quajtur Prroi i Selanit u masakruan 72 krer, intelektual dhe personalitete t minoritetit shqiptar n Greqi.
    Gjat nj periudhe 30-vjeare, amt e pambrojtur iu nnshtruan t ashtuquajturs reform agrare, ku iu grabit toka dhe iu shprnda kolonve grek, t sjell nga Azia e Vogl n vitet ’20, iu mohua e drejta e shkolls n gjuhn amtare e deri tek e drejta e vots dhe jeta u katandis n skajet e padurimit.
    Para se t fillonte Lufta e Dyt Botrore, amt u paragjykuan dhe u internuan n ishujt e Egjeut, etj. Atyre q u thirrn n ushtri, iu dhan kazma e lopata, duke i trajtuar si robr lufte. Megjithat, gjat lufts amt dhan nj kontribut t muar me pjesmarrjen e tyre n batalionet ”amria” e “Ali Demi”, ku morn pjes mbi 1000 lufttar, krahas formacioneve lirimtare greke e n prbrje t tyre, fakte kto t vrtetuara qart me dokumete e libra t shkruara nga vet autort grek t t dy krahve politik, si dhe nga misionet ushtarake aleate (Jani Sharra, Niko Zhangu, Mihal Miridhaqi, C.M.Uoodhouse etj).
    Por, t gjitha sakrificat e ksaj popullsie n Luftn lirimtare u mohuan nga autoritetet greke n fund t Lufts dhe vazhdojn t mohohen deri n ditt e sotme.
    Pr kt n mnyr absurde, shteti grek mban “de jure” n fuqi Ligjin e Lufts Nr. 2636/1940 si dhe ligjet, pjella t tij, 4506/1966 e 1664/1998.
    N kohn kur sht dekretuar Ligji i Lufts me Shqiprin, amt ishin shtetas grek dhe ky ligj s’kishte t bnte fare me ta. Ai mbahet sot si gozhda e Nastradinit dhe pr t dshmuar para bots s qytetruar se si Greqia shkel konventat ndrkombtare, t nnshkruara nga vet ajo.

    Greqia vazhdon t shkel sot “Konventn mbi Mosparashkrimin e Krimeve t Lufts dhe Krimeve Kundr Njerzimit”, hyr n fuqi m 11 nntor 1970.
    Kjo Konvent rikujton rezolutat e Ansambles s Prgjithshme t OKB-s, dat 13 shkurt 1946 dhe 31 tetor 1947, n lidhje me ekstradimin dhe ndshkimin e kriminelve t lufts dhe Rezolutn 95 t 11 dhjetorit 1946, q konfirmon parimet e s Drejts Ndrkombtare, t njohura nga Statuti i Gjykats Ushtarake Ndrkombtare t Nurembergut dhe nga vendimi i atij gjyqi, si dhe Rezolutat e dhjetorit 1966, nprmjet t cilave Ansambleja e Prgjithshme ka dnuar shprehimisht si krime ndaj njerzimit shkeljen e t drejtave ekonomike dhe politike t popullsive autoktone, si sht popullsia e martirizuar e amris, ku pjess muslimane iu grabitn pronat, kurse popullsis s krishtere i mohohet sot identiteti kombtar, shkolla dhe gjuha amtare.
    N neni 1 t ksaj Konvente, theksohet se krimet e lufts “jan t paparashkrueshme, cilado qoft data kur jan kryer”.
    Gjithashtu, n pikn b t nenit 1, dnohen pa kufi kohor: “Dbimi nprmjet nj sulmi t armatosur ose pushtimit dhe aktet njerzore …, si dhe krimi i genocidit, ashtu si sht prcaktuar n Konventn e 1948, pr parandalimin dhe ndjekjen e krimit t genocidit, qoft dhe kur kto akte nuk prbjn shkelje t s drejts s brendshme t vendit ku jan kryer”.
    Pr cilindo nga krimet e kryera n amri, dispozitat e ksaj konventa krkojn t vihen n zbatim edhe “ndaj prfaqsuesve t autoritetit t shtetit q tolerojn kryerjen e tij”, theksohet n nenin 2, pra edhe qeveria aktuale ka prgjegjsi pr fardo qndrimi zvarrits n dhnien e t drejtave t mohuara popullsis ame n ditt e sotme.
    N nenin 4, Konventa e detyron Greqin “t marr t gjitha masat legjislative e t tjera q do t jen t nevojshme, pr t siguruar mosparashkrimin e krimeve t prmendura n nenet 1 dhe 2 …, si prsa u prket ndjekjeve, ashtu edhe prsa i prket dnimit, atje ku mund t ekzistoj nj parashkrim, me ligj apo me nj mnyr tjetr, ai do t hiqet”.
    N kundrshtim t plot me Konventn e Mosparashkrimit t Krimeve t Lufts, shteti grek nuk ka nnshkruar edhe Protokollin Nr.4 t Konvents Evropeane t t Drejtave t Njeriut. Kjo sht br qllimisht pr t mbajtur t pushtuar amrin, n kuadrin e strategjis greke t “Megali Ides”, t parit traktat nacionalist antinjerzor n historin e Evrops. N pikn 1 t nenit 3 t ktij protokolli, theksohet: “Askush nuk mund t dbohet me an t nj mase individuale ose kolektive nga territori i Shtetit, shtetas i t cilit ai sht” dhe n pikn 2 t t njjtit nen nnvizohet: “Askujt nuk mund t’i hiqet e drejta pr t hyr n territorin e Shtetit, shtetas i t cilit ai sht”.
    Nga ana tjetr, Greqia si antare e Kshillit t Evrops e ka ratifikuar Konventn Evropiane t t Drejtave t Njeriut e, megjithat, ajo vazhdon t shkel t drejtat e shqiptarve t amris, duke i akuzuar pa t drejt si bashkpuntor t nazifashizmit.
    N pikn 2 t nenit 6 t ksaj Konvente thuhet: “do person i akuzuar pr nj shkelje t ligjit, prezumohet i pafajshm deri sa fajsia e tij t provohet ligjrisht”.
    N fakt, pafajsia e amve sht provuar ligjrisht nga Gjykata e Diktimit t Janins, me shkresn me numr protokolli 1837, dat 29 shtator 1976, drguar Ministris s Rendit Publik, Drejtoris s Shrbimeve Kriminale n Athin.
    Pra, ka ardhur koha q pas ktij spastrimi etnik me dhun t amris, Greqia t krkoj falje publike pr 2900 viktimat e pafajshme t masakruara, pr 40.000 vett e przn me dhun, pr 68 fshatrat e qytetet e grabitura e te djegura, t gjtha objektet e kultit t rrnuara dhe 60 vjet shfrytzim t padrejt t pasurive t tyre, t marr t gjitha masat pr t siguruar kthimin e amve n vendin e tyre n amri, me dinjitet, sipas t gjitha Konventave Ndrkombtare q ajo vet i ka ratifikuar.
    Shteti shqiptar, krahas puns me fqinjn jugore, t vr n dijeni OKB-n dhe gjith organizmat e interesuara evropiane dhe amerikan, se si i zbaton Greqia konventat dhe kartat ndrkombtare e mos t merret me ato q jan t fundit, komisione qesharake pronash, q nuk zgjidhin asgj pa rregulluar t parat.

  18. #18
    Peace and love
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    9 falenderime n 6 postime
    Tana e Hazirit,ti i perket asaj kategorie qe ne rast lufte e hane plumbin nga te dyja palet.Me pak fjale Tane qe ulet ne c'do preher.

  19. #19
    Larguar.
    Antarsuar
    02-11-2005
    Vendndodhja
    n Blog
    Postime
    1,121
    Faleminderit
    0
    0 falenderime n 0 postime
    Citim Postuar m par nga Darius
    Spo te pergjigjem per kusurin se sja vlen. Eshte tamam loje fjalesh. Irredentizmi grek jo vetem qe ska mbaruar ndonjehere po eshte me aktiv se kurre nen rrogoz. Ndersa nga shqiptaret mos prit asnje irredentizem. Thjesht marrje mbrapsht e asaj qe i takon. Nese te paska vrare syri qe temat historike flasin per shqiperi etnike, shqiperi te madhe, shqiperi akoma me te medha (gje qe nuk eshte e vertete aspak dhe ska asnje teme qe te kete nje kontekst te tille pervec ndonje postimi te shkeputur) dhe endrra, ato jane tema te hapura nga anetaret shqiptare ne nje Forum Shqiptar. Sic nuk t'u ndalua ty e drejta e fjales kur hodhe helmin me kova per origjinen shqiptare, gjuhe shqiptare e kusur. Per me teper ti sje aspak ne pozicionin per te gjykuar punen e nje moderatori dhe as menyren sesi administrohet ky forum. Nuk eshte bere per nje Tannhauser po per gjithe shqiptaret. Dhe me e fundit si dhe me e rendesishmja, nese nuk e gjen veten tende te mirepritur ideologjikisht dhe nese ky forum te duket irredentist apo antigrek atehere mund te zgjedh mos frekuentimin dhe te qetesosh shpirtin tend te trazuar greqar ne ndonje forum grek ku sharjet, fyerjet dhe masakrimi i historise ndaj shqiptareve eshte i legjitimuar madje stimulohet me pasionin me te madh.
    Une skam c'te them me teper me ty ose me njerez si ti. Vecse nje keshille, ne qofte se fati i keq te sjell ndonjehere ne Greqi mos harrosh te vish me truproja, dhe assesi mos deklarosh se je shqiptar. Nuk do te te keshilloja te bleje as veshmbathje prej lekure. Jo se jane te shtrenjta por kush e di, mund te jene prej lekure shqiptari, turku a ndonje fukarai tjeter...

    Citim Postuar m par nga tani 26
    Persa i perket GENOCIDIT grek ndaj cameve eshte i pajustifikueshem dhe Tannhauser gabon kur e justifikon kete Genocid me faktin se nje pjese e Cameve bashkepunuan me fashizmin, nese Genocidi do te '' ligjerohej'' nga ky akt atehere edhe turqit kishin cdo te drejte te ushtronin genocidin ndaj popullsive greke te Azise se vogel dhe greket e sotem padrejtesisht e denojne kete gjenocid!
    Nga cili postim del se une e justifikoj gjenocidin? Shiko c'fare kam thene me larte:

    Citim Postuar m par nga Tannhauser
    Kur une them se e kuptoj pse greket e Zerves bene gjenocid kjo nuk do te thote se une i justifikoj aktin e tyre. Njeri jam, ve ne perdorim llogjiken kam faktet dhe nxjer konkluzione. Kjo me dallon nga qeniet e tjera. Keshtu pra mund ta gjej shkakun dhe ta kuptoj. Por kjo nuk do te thote se bashkohem me te dhe kam te njejtin mendim. Nje inspektor i kriminalistikes, nje psikolog mund ti kuptoje arsyet pse nje kriminel reagon ne menyren qe reagon. Kjo nuk do te thote se justifikon kriminelin.
    Keshtu pra, edhe per gjenocidin turk ndaj grekeve mund te them se e kuptoj, mund te gjej edhe shkakun e ketij veprimi (i cili ne te vertete ishte me organizim qendror) por kjo nuk do te thote se une e justifikoj. Nuk eshte e qarte diferenca tek ti, sepse e di qe Dariusi nuk e kupton.

  20. #20
    Deny Ignorance Maska e Darius
    Antarsuar
    25-04-2002
    Vendndodhja
    Agartha
    Postime
    12,775
    Faleminderit
    20
    216 falenderime n 156 postime
    Ehh more tannhauser ...

    Kupton Dariusi shume mire kupton. Ty dhe te tjere si ty. Puna eshte se kur do kuptojne dhe te tjeret te vertituren tende.
    TI e pranon genocidin dhe ja si e pranon:

    Citim Postuar m par nga tannhauser
    Une e pranoj gjenocidin kunder cameve, por pranoj edhe krimet e miliceve came dhe padroneve te tyre Italiane kunder grekeve. Se po te mos bashkepunonin camet me italianet dhe ti shikonin si shpetimtare nuk kishte pse Zerva (shenim ketu se ka qene suliot) ti ndiqte.

Faqja 1 prej 2 12 FunditFundit

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Ruaj Lidhjet

Regullat e Postimit

  • Ju nuk mund t hapni tema t reja.
  • Ju nuk mund t postoni n tema.
  • Ju nuk mund t bashkngjitni skedar.
  • Ju nuk mund t ndryshoni postimet tuaja.
  •