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  1. #1
    Ikon-thyes Maska e Qafir Arnaut
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    27-07-2002
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    Shum po shndrit aj Diell, e pak po nxeh
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    Umberto Eco mbi Rrenjet e Konfliktit (ANGLISHT)

    By Umberto Eco

    An English modification of an essay for La Repubblica, 15 October 2001. Excerpted from Counterpunch).

    Original Article: Le guerre sante passione e ragione

    All the religious wars that have caused blood to be shed for centuries arise from passionate feelings and facile counter-positions, such as Us and Them, good and bad, white and black. If western culture is shown to be rich it is because, even before the Enlightenment, it has tried to "dissolve" harmful simplifications through inquiry and the critical mind. Of course it did not always do this. Hitler, who burned books, condemned "degenerate" art and killed those belonging to "inferior" races; and the fascism which taught me at school to recite "May God Curse the English" because they were "the people who eat five meals a day" and were therefore greedy and inferior to thrifty Italians, are also part of the history of western culture.
    It is sometimes hard to grasp the difference between identifying with one's own roots, understanding people with other roots, and judging what is good or bad. Should I prefer to live in Limoges rather than, say, Moscow? Moscow is certainly a beautiful city. But in Limoges I would understand the language. Everyone identifies with the culture in which he grew up and the cases of root transplants, while they do occur, are in the minority: Lawrence of Arabia dressed as an Arab, but he ended up back home in England.
    The west, often for reasons of economic expansion, has been curious about other civilisations. The Greeks referred to those who did not speak their language as barbarians, that is stammerers, as if they did not speak at all. But a few more mature Greeks, like the Stoics, noticed that although the barbarians used different words, they referred to the same thoughts.
    From the second half of the 19th century, cultural anthropology developed as an attempt to assuage the guilt of the west towards others, and particularly those others who had been defined as savages; societies without a history, primitive peoples. The task of the cultural anthropologist was to demonstrate that beliefs which differed from western ones existed, and should be taken seriously, not disdained and repressed. In order to say -- as Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi did, controversially, this month -- whether any one culture is superior to another, parameters have to be established.
    A culture can be described objectively -- these people behave like this; believe in spirits or in a single divine being that pervades the whole of nature; meet in family clans according to these rules; consider it beautiful to pierce their noses with rings (this could be a description of western youth culture); consider pork to be impure; circumcise themselves; raise dogs for the pot on public holidays or, as the English and Americans still say of the French, eat frogs.
    Obviously, the anthropologist knows that objectivity is always limited by many factors. The criteria of judgment depend on our own roots, preferences, habits, passions, our system of values. For example: do we consider that the prolonging of the average life span from 40 to 80 years is worthwhile? I personally believe so, but many mystics could tell me that, between a glutton who lives for 80 years and Saint Luigi Gonzaga, who only survived for 23, it was the latter who had the fuller life.
    Do we believe that technological development, the expansion of trade, and faster transport is worthwhile? Many think so, and judge our technological civilisation as superior. But, within the western world itself, there are those who primarily wish to live in harmony with an uncorrupted environment, and are willing to relinquish air travel, cars and refrigerators, to weave baskets and travel on foot from one village to another, as long as the ozone hole isn't there.
    So in order to define one culture as better than another, it is not enough to describe it (as the anthropologist does), but it is advisable to have recourse to a system of values which we do not feel we can relinquish. Only at this point can we say that our culture is better, for us.
    How absolute is the parameter of technological development? Pakistan has the atom bomb, not Italy. So is Italy an inferior civilisation? Better to live in Islamabad than Arcore? Shouldn't we respect the Islamic world by being reminded that it has given us men like Avicenna (who was actually born in Buchara, not far from Afghanistan) and Averroes, as well as Al-Kindi, Avenpace, Avicebron, Ibn Tufayl, or that great historian of the 14th century Ibn Khaldoun, whom the west considers as the father of the social sciences. The Arabs of Spain cultivated geography, astronomy, mathematics or medicine when the Christian world was lagging far behind in those subjects.
    We might recall that those Arabs of Spain were fairly tolerant of Christians and Jews, while we gave rise to the ghettoes, and that Saladin, when he reconquered Jerusalem, was more merciful to the Christians than the Christians had been to the Saracens when they took over Jerusalem. All very true, but in the Islamic world there are fundamentalist and theocratic regimes today which the Christians do not tolerate, and Bin Laden was not merciful to New York. The Taliban destroyed the great stone Buddhas with their cannon: conversely, the French carried out the St Bartholomew's day massacre, but this gives no one the right to say they are barbarians today.
    History is a two-edged sword. The Turks were impalers (and that's bad) but the orthodox Byzantines put out the eyes of their dangerous relatives and the Catholics burned Giordano Bruno; Saracen pirates did many wicked things, but the buccaneers of his British majesty set fire to the Spanish colonies in the Caribbean; Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are ferocious enemies of western civilisation, but within western civilisation there were men like Hitler and Stalin.
    No, the problem of parameters is not set within history, but in our times. One of the praiseworthy aspects of western culture (free and pluralistic, and these are values which we consider basic and essential) is that it has been long held that the same person can employ different parameters which may be mutually contradictory on different matters. For example, the prolonging of life is considered good, and atmospheric pollution bad, but we can very well see that maybe in big laboratories where they study how to prolong life, there might be power systems which themselves produce pollution.
    Western culture has developed the capacity to freely lay bare its own contradictions. Maybe they remain unresolved, but they are well known and admitted: how can we manage some positive globalisation while avoiding the risks and injustices that follow; how can we prolong life for the millions of Africans dying of AIDS (while at the same time prolonging our own lives) without accepting a planetary economy which causes people to die of hunger and AIDS, and makes us eat polluted food?
    But it is just this criticism of parameters, pursued and encouraged by the west, that makes us understand how delicate the matter is. Is it just and proper to protect bank secrets? Many people think so. But if this secrecy allows terrorists to keep their accounts in the City of London then is this defence of so-called privacy a positive value or a doubtful one? We are always calling our parameters into question. The western world does so to such an extent as to allow its own citizens to turn down technological development and become Buddhists, or go and live in communities where no tyres are used, not even for horse-drawn carts.
    The west has decided to channel money and effort into studying other customs and practices, but no one has really given other people the chance to study western customs and practices, except at schools maintained by white expatriates, or by allowing the rich from other cultures to study in Oxford or Paris. What happens then is that they return home to organise fundamentalist movements, because they feel solidarity with those of their compatriots who lack the opportunity for such education.
    An international organisation called Transcultura has been campaigning for an "alternative anthropology" for some years. It has taken African researchers, who have never been to the west before, to describe provincial France and society in Bologna. Both sides started to take a genuine look at each other, and some interesting discussions took place. At present, three Chinese -- a philosopher, an anthropologist and an artist -- are completing a Marco Polo voyage in reverse, culminating in a conference in Brussels in November. Imagine Muslim fundamentalists being invited to research Christian fundamentalism (not the Catholics this time, but American Protestants, more fanatical than ayatollahs, who try to expunge all reference to Darwin from schools). In my opinion the anthropological study of other people's fundamentalism leads to a better understanding of one's own. Let them come and study our concept of holy war (I could commend many interesting texts to them, including some quite recent ones). They might then take a more critical view of the idea of holy war back home.
    We are a pluralist civilisation because we allow mosques to be built in our countries, and we are not going to stop simply because Christian missionaries are thrown into prison in Kabul. If we did so, we too would become Taliban. The parameter of tolerating diversity is certainly one of the strongest and least open to argument. We consider our culture mature because it can tolerate diversity, and those who share our culture, while rejecting diversity to be uncivilised, period. We hope that, if we allow mosques in our countries, one day there will be Christian churches in their countries, or at least Buddhas won't get blown up there. If we believe we have got our parameters right, that is.
    But there is a great deal of confusion. Funny things happen these days. It seems that defending western values has become a rightwing prerogative, while the Left, as ever, is pro-Islamic. Now, apart from the pro-third world, pro-Arab stance of some rightwing and Catholic activist circles, and so on, this ignores a historical phenomenon which is there for all to see.
    The defence of scientific values, of technological development and modern western culture in general, has always been characteristic of secular and progressive political circles. Indeed, all communist regimes have relied on an ideology of technological and scientific progress. The 1848 Communist Manifesto opens with a dispassionate eulogy on the expansion of the bourgeoisie. Marx does not say it is necessary to change direction and go over to Asian means of production. He merely says that the proletariat must learn to master these values and successes.
    Conversely it has always been reactionary thought (in the best sense of the word), at least starting from the rejection of the French revolution, which has opposed the secular ideology of progress and propounded a return to traditional values. Only a few neo-Nazi groups have a mythical notion of the west and would be ready to slit the throats of all Muslims at Stonehenge. The more serious traditionalist thinkers have always looked to Islam as a source of alternative spirituality, in addition to the rites and myths of primitive peoples and the teachings of Buddhism. They have always made a point of reminding us that we are not superior, but impoverished by our ideology of progress, and that we must seek the truth among the Sufi mystics or the whirling dervishes. Thus a strange dichotomy is now opening on the right. But perhaps it is only a sign that, at times of great bewilderment (such as the present), no one knows quite where they stand any more.
    But it is at times of bewilderment that the weapon of analysis and criticism comes into its own, to be applied to our own superstitions and those of others.

    Umberto Eco (c) 2001
    Adresat e faqeve personale mund ti vendosesh ne profil por jo ne firme. Stafi i Forumit

  2. #2
    Shpirt Shqiptari Maska e Albo
    Anėtarėsuar
    16-04-2002
    Vendndodhja
    Philadelphia
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    Postimet nė Bllog
    17
    Ne kete bote ka njerez qe u pelqen te debatojne dhe analizojne gjithcka dhe cdo gje, ashtu sic ka njerez qe jo vetem debatojne, por dine edhe te veprojne. Te paret jane liberale, te dytet jane konservatore. Ky eshte ndryshimi i vertete midis liberaleve dhe konservatoreve.

    Autori me lart ende nuk e ka kuptuar qe bota eshte ne lufte pasi lufta kunder terrorizmit eshte nje tabu ne fjalorin e nje liberali. Ne vend qe te analizoje motivet dhe shkaqet e atyre qe e iniciuan kete lufte, ai e ka me te lehte te analizoje e debatoje motivet dhe shkaqet e atyre qe po mbrojne ato liri dhe te drejta qe edhe autori gezon.

    Kur e pyeti nje student amerikan me bindje te ekstremit te majte nje ushtar amerikan marins qe kish te njejten moshe me te, te sapo kthyer nga Iraku:

    - Perse je kaq budalla qe shkon ne lufte e lufton ne Irak dhe ve jeten tende ne rrezik? (duke mbajtur lart parrula kunder luftes)
    - Une shkoj ne lufte qe te mbroj te drejten tende per te protestuar dhe jetuar i lire e pa frike, - ia ktheu ushtari.

    Albo
    "Babai i shtetit ėshtė Ismail "Qemali", e zbuloi Edvin shkencėtari!"

  3. #3
    Unquestionable! Maska e Cupke_pe_Korce
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    24-06-2002
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    liberalet qenkan vetem per llafe, ndersa konservatoret per aksion. Po domosdo, ne SHBA-ne e shek 21-te politiken e ben sherifi (dmth G.W. Bush) dhe jo diplomacia. Po si dole ne kete konkluzion nuk na e the...apo vetem kamxhiku ben pune kur ke te besh me nje popull ekskluzivisht plebe sic jane amerikanet.

    Qafir, interesant shkrimi me lart!
    Summertime, and the livin' is easy...

  4. #4
    Ikon-thyes Maska e Qafir Arnaut
    Anėtarėsuar
    27-07-2002
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    Shum po shndrit aj Diell, e pak po nxeh
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    1,542
    Ne fakt qellimi im nuk ishte qe te ndaja shapin nga sheqeri, te majten nga e djathta.
    Qellimi ishte qe te botohej mendimi i nje nga shkrimtaret me te medhenj (sipas meje) me dituri enciklopedike, qe eshte gjalle sot. Pavarerisht nga mundimi qe ka marre per te qene i paanshem, ai habitet me faktin pse mbrojtja e principeve te botekuptimit perendimor i mbetet vetem te djathteve, ndersa te majtet vazhdojne te jene pro-Arabe etc etc.

    Interesant mbetet fakti qe ai nuk konteston se situata e sotme perkon me parashikimet kuazi-profetike te Samuel Huntigton, dmth qe periudha post-Luftes te Ftohte do perkufizohet jo me nga konfliktet ideologjike, por nga ato te bazuara mbi qyteterimet. Umberto Eco duket sikur eshte dakord me kete, packa se duket si i majte.
    Adresat e faqeve personale mund ti vendosesh ne profil por jo ne firme. Stafi i Forumit

  5. #5
    i/e regjistruar Maska e amaro
    Anėtarėsuar
    21-02-2003
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    NenToke
    Postime
    242
    umberto eco eshte legjende qe jeton, librin e fundit qe i kam lexuar eshte "baudolino" nuk kam ndermend te futem te shpjegoj admirimin qe kam per kte dijetar por dua te them qe eshte nje shkrimtar qe pelqen te bej tripe ne historite e qyteterimeve superfuqi te shkuara duke i krahasuar ato me superfuqine e fundit (usa).
    per mendimin tim eshte nder penat e pakta largpamese qe duke gezuar nje popullaritet edhe ne amerike, guxon e pyet "deri ku mund te shkoje cmenduria e globalizmit"
    ne kto kohe qe jetojme ato popuj qe nuk pranojne ne nje rruge apo tjeter qe te futen ne sistemin "globalization" quhen barbare(fondamentalist ose teokratik) dmth nje bote bardhe dhe zi kjo per ne qe duam ngjyra ose alternativa ose me mire qe nuk jemi mysliman dhe jemi kundra globalizmit umberto econ e shohim ne vendin e zedhensit te mendimeve tona.

    p.s. albo dialogu i ushtari te kthyer nga lufta me protestuein qe ti kishe shtuar tek shkrimi yt mu duk shume komercial, nuk ka dallim nga propoganda e bushit ne zgjedhje.
    Money Makes Man act Funny

  6. #6
    Shpirt Shqiptari Maska e Albo
    Anėtarėsuar
    16-04-2002
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    Philadelphia
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    Postimet nė Bllog
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    amaro, meqe ajo nuk te pelqeu, po te tregoj nje tjeter, dhe keto nuk jane pjese reklamash apo fushatash politike, jane episode te verteta te shkeputura nga jeta.

    Debati mbi "patriotizmin" e vertete midis nje fermeri amerikan dhe nje aktori Hollywood:

    - Cfare do te benit ju nese SHBA do te perfshihej nga aktet terroriste qe perjton Iraku apo Izraeli sot?

    - Une do te shkoja te jetoja ne nje shtet neutral qe eshte ne paqe, - iu pergjigj aktori i hollywood, aktivist ne fushaten kunder luftes ne Irak.
    - Une do te shkoja ushtar dhe do mbroja vendin tim, - ia ktheu fermeri.

    Morali i ketij episodi te thjeshte flet per dy perkufizime te ndryshme te "patriotizmit" nga dy botekuptime antagoniste.
    "Babai i shtetit ėshtė Ismail "Qemali", e zbuloi Edvin shkencėtari!"

  7. #7
    yells `aziz! light!` Maska e AsgjėSikurDielli
    Anėtarėsuar
    12-09-2002
    Vendndodhja
    the black light
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    1,786
    Termi liberal dhe konzervativ nuk mund te shpjegohet me, sic u tha me lart, komercializma te Bushit dhe 'kampanjes' se tij qe me shume merret me veprat e John Kerry se sa me te arriturat e vete Bushit.

    Nje Liberal eshte nje njeri qe beson se shoqeria evoluon, nderron, merr drejtime te ndryshme, dhe simbas kesaj, duhet kuptuar ndryshimet dhe nevojat ne baze te rrethanave dhe kohes.

    Ndersa nje konzervativ beson te kunderten, eshte, ne kuptimin me te lehte, fetar, beson ne tradita te vjetra, nuk i ka ne qejf ndryshimet, dhe e fokuson jeten e tij ne ruajtjen e atyre traditave te vjetra. Nuk eshte fort i hapur ndaj ideve te reja, refuzon cdo gje qe nuk perputhet me traditat e tij dhe te vendit ku jeton.

    Prandaj ta shpjegosh nje konzervativ si njeri te aksionit, eshte si te thuash se kermilli eshte njeri i aksionit, ndersa luani flen gjithe diten (krahasimi me kafshe eshte i rastit).

    Umberto Ecco shkruan nje analize fort te mire mbi gjendjen e sotme dhe dy rrymat me te medha (se ka edhe rryma tjera) dhe relacionin e tyre me, te themi, Boten arabe. Liberalet e kane kuptuar se te jetosh i qete e pa probleme dmth te kesh bashkepunim me te gjithe. Konzervativet mendojne se duke i bombarduar njerezit, mund ta bejne veten me te sigurte. Por bombardimi nuk te krijon me shume miq, po me shume armiq. Prandaj te jesh pro-arab, s'dmth te jesh pro-diktator a ku ta di une... po t'u japesh nje shanse, nje rast njerezve atje te kene nje kembim idesh me ty, qe ke nje eksperience me te madhe ne demokraci e tranzicion, t'u ndihmosh te dalin nga rrethi vicioz i mbreterive (shumica e te cilave financohen nga kompanite e medha amerikane - qe dihet se ne duar te kujt jane), t'u ndihmosh ta pranojne dhe perceptojne kulturen perendimore me lehte, dhe ta absorbojne gradualisht, t'ua shpjegosh se cka dmth ajo kulture dhe cilat jane caqet e saj, etj.

    Keto koncepte mungojne teresisht ne anen konzervative qe mendon se psh, arabet mund te jene vetem nafte-prodhues te mire e assesi politikane te mire, prandaj nese ngresin zerin, nja 20 copa B-52 dhe mbaron puna.

    Njerez te tille e ndajne boten ne bardh dhe zi. Cdo gje qe tejkalon ato ngjyra, eshte e huaj (alien), dhe si e tille, o duhet shkaterruar, o dobesuar sa te mos paraqet 'rrezik' per ta dhe tradicionalizmin e tyre. Kjo me se miri kuptohet nga ultimatizimi i kesaj lufte mbi 'terrorizmin' qe fillonte dhe mbaronte ne dy ngjyra:

    "Either you're with us in this (white), or you're against us (black)".

    - G. Bush, 2001.

  8. #8
    Ikon-thyes Maska e Qafir Arnaut
    Anėtarėsuar
    27-07-2002
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    Shum po shndrit aj Diell, e pak po nxeh
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    Citim Postuar mė parė nga AsgjėSikurDielli
    Liberalet e kane kuptuar se te jetosh i qete e pa probleme dmth te kesh bashkepunim me te gjithe. Konzervativet mendojne se duke i bombarduar njerezit, mund ta bejne veten me te sigurte..
    Analize teper e ceket kjo. Konservatoret jane ata njerez te cilet nuk duan t'i perulen kerkesave te ish-kolonive per te kerkuar falje per imperializmin Europian, ndersa liberalet jane ata qe urrejne veten, historine e vet, kulturen e vet. Prandaj dalin me teorira multi-kulturaliste ku kultura e lekurekuqit Amerikan dalka e barabarte me ate te Rilindjes Europiane etj etj. Bullshit... Perendimi ska pse te kerkoje falje per asgje dhe liberalet duhet te dine te mbrojne veten e tyre e jo te dalin ne krahe te armikut arab-islamik qe ne fund te fundit eshte vete KONSERVATOR. Kete do te thote edhe Umberto Eco. Duhet te ishin Liberalet te paret ata qe do ti dilnin ne mbrojte parimeve e botekuptimit perendimor. Por ata u lane vend konservatoreve e te djathtes fetare te merren me kete pune se ishin shume te zene duke u shtrire gjethen e dafines Bin Ladinit e ideologjise te tij fashiste.
    Ndryshuar pėr herė tė fundit nga Qafir Arnaut : 04-08-2004 mė 15:44
    Adresat e faqeve personale mund ti vendosesh ne profil por jo ne firme. Stafi i Forumit

  9. #9
    yells `aziz! light!` Maska e AsgjėSikurDielli
    Anėtarėsuar
    12-09-2002
    Vendndodhja
    the black light
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    1,786
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga Qafir Arnaut
    Analize teper e ceket kjo. Konservatoret jane ata njerez te cilet nuk duan t'i perulen kerkesave te ish-kolonive per te kerkuar falje per imperializmin Europian, ndersa liberalet jane ata qe urrejne veten, historine e vet, kulturen e vet. Prandaj dalin me teorira multi-kulturaliste ku kultura e lekurekuqit Amerikan dalka e barabarte me ate te Rilindjes Europiane etj etj. Bullshit... Perendimi ska pse te kerkoje falje per asgje dhe liberalet duhet te dine te mbrojne veten e tyre e jo te dalin ne krahe te armikut arab-islamik qe ne fund te fundit eshte vete KONSERVATOR. Kete do te thote edhe Umberto Eco.

    Po harron se liberale nuk ka vetem ne Amerike dhe se termi liberal lindi nga Revolucioni francez, e jo nga lufta civile ne Amerike, prandaj keto teorite e tua per liberalet qe urrejne veten e historine 'e tyre' (pse histori tjeter paskan konzervativet?) bien ne uje me dy duart e kembet.

    Askush nuk tha se 'Perendimi duhet te kerkoje falje', koncentrohu kur lexon, e as t'u dale ne krah arabeve, po qe perendimi 'should do a better job explaining to others just what westernism is', qe ta kene me te lehte ta pranojne dhe perceptojne e te mos mendojne se ua rrezikon fene e lirine e tyre, vis-a-vis, t'a bejne veten me te sigurte. Liberalizmi eshte kultura e pranimit te ndikimeve tjera - dicka qe eshte shume e pranishme ne Midway America, qe nuk mund te them edhe per South America ku konzervativet jane shumice.

    Westernizmi eshte ide komplet liberale, se po te ishte puna per konzervativet, do te kallnim hala libra qe s'ishin Bibla e do ta djegnim Xhordano Brunon me rend numror 150,000,000 momentalisht.
    Ndryshuar pėr herė tė fundit nga AsgjėSikurDielli : 04-08-2004 mė 15:50

  10. #10
    i/e regjistruar Maska e amaro
    Anėtarėsuar
    21-02-2003
    Vendndodhja
    NenToke
    Postime
    242
    albo ke te drejte, une harroj qe ti jeton ne amerike.
    Money Makes Man act Funny

  11. #11
    Ikon-thyes Maska e Qafir Arnaut
    Anėtarėsuar
    27-07-2002
    Vendndodhja
    Shum po shndrit aj Diell, e pak po nxeh
    Postime
    1,542
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga AsgjėSikurDielli
    Po harron se liberale nuk ka vetem ne Amerike dhe se termi liberal lindi nga Revolucioni francez, e jo nga lufta civile ne Amerike, prandaj keto teorite e tua per liberalet qe urrejne veten e historine 'e tyre' (pse histori tjeter paskan konzervativet?) bien ne uje me dy duart e kembet.
    Historia eshte e njejte qofte per liberalet qofte per konservativet. Ndryshimi qendron tek qendrimi qe mbajne te dy grupet. Qendrimi liberal eshte "ne e merituam 11 Shtatorin me sjelljen tone qe prej 150 vjetesh". Konservatoret e shohin se nuk kane pse te shfajesojne Arabet dhe konservatoret Islamike per 11 Shtatorin. Qendrimi i liberaleve eshte i gabuar per mendimin tim.
    Adresat e faqeve personale mund ti vendosesh ne profil por jo ne firme. Stafi i Forumit

  12. #12
    Unquestionable! Maska e Cupke_pe_Korce
    Anėtarėsuar
    24-06-2002
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    Qafir, une kisha pershtypjen se e kishe marre vesh shkrimin qe solle, por me duket se qenkam gabuar BIG TIME! Ti o te keqen lali as fjales "konservator" nuk ja di kuptimin, vaj halli te kuptosh politiken. Eh thuaj!
    Summertime, and the livin' is easy...

  13. #13
    Ikon-thyes Maska e Qafir Arnaut
    Anėtarėsuar
    27-07-2002
    Vendndodhja
    Shum po shndrit aj Diell, e pak po nxeh
    Postime
    1,542
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga Cupke_pe_Korce
    Qafir, une kisha pershtypjen se e kishe marre vesh shkrimin qe solle, por me duket se qenkam gabuar BIG TIME! Ti o te keqen lali as fjales "konservator" nuk ja di kuptimin, vaj halli te kuptosh politiken. Eh thuaj!
    Ty s'te ka vene njeri per mesonjese ketu. Rri urte dhe jep kontributin pa sulmuar tjetrin.
    Adresat e faqeve personale mund ti vendosesh ne profil por jo ne firme. Stafi i Forumit

  14. #14
    Unquestionable! Maska e Cupke_pe_Korce
    Anėtarėsuar
    24-06-2002
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    1,602
    pardonnez moi, shkelqesi!
    Summertime, and the livin' is easy...

  15. #15
    Bogdan Chmielnicki Maska e antares
    Anėtarėsuar
    19-08-2004
    Vendndodhja
    Ukraine
    Postime
    880
    Do ti kujtoja Albos e ca te tjereve ketu ne forum qe ndarja liberale=antilufte e konservatore=prolufte eshte artificiale dhe e gabuar. Me shpjegoni atehere qendrimin e Pat Buchanan qe cdo gje mund ti thuhet po liberal jo.....
    Qendrimi i cave ketu (sidomos kur marrin guximin te gjykojne per figura si Echo) me kujton ata kaubojsat qe ne fillim qellojne e pastaj bisedojne. nese nje shtet nuk e kupton (nuk do ta kuptoje) se pse ndodh nje fenomen atehere te gjitha perpjekjet e tij per ta kundershtuar jane te destinuara te deshtojne.
    Romaket kane pasur nje fjale "Lufto shkaqet e jo pasojat"
    Ajo qe ameriaknet quajne "terrorizem" sot eshte jo shkak po pasoje e drejtperdrejte e politikave te tyre te jashtme shume dekada me rradhe.....

  16. #16
    Perjashtuar Maska e Ryder
    Anėtarėsuar
    24-06-2002
    Postime
    1,160
    Citim Postuar mė parė nga Qafir Arnaut
    liberalet jane ata qe urrejne veten, historine e vet, kulturen e vet.
    Megjithse kjo esht klishe qe mund te ket korrur nej dore te qeshurash te nej late night Texas talk-show, po te shofesh se ca kulture dhe historie urrejne liberalet merr icik kuptim me tridimensional muhabeti.
    Megjithse gjeja e fundit qe dua te bej esht te filloj stereotipet dhe si pasoje te dal si majmun qe kercen gjith zell brenda kafazit te indoktrinimit qe e ka thurur vete (si lideri i kti forumit qe i shef gjerat me etiketa), historia e perendimit esht ndertuar mbi dominim, (pushtime, skllaveri, gjenocide)...dhe nqs bota vazhdon me lidera mendje-ngushte qe "veprojne" s'ka asnje arsye pse te mos vazhdoje historia te perserisi veten duke ndenjur ne vend numero...sepse paradoksalisht sic e the vete, edhe Ayatollat konservatore jane.
    Pastaj te "urresh veten" esht nje hap gjigand per tu shmangur nga shovinizmi, ultra-nacionalizmi etj dhe per te menduar ne shkalle globale.

    Sa per "kerkim faljeje" ajo esht ceshtje komplet e ceket. (dinjiteti qe mund ti bie ati qe kerkon falje s'me prek shum)
    Rendesi ka qe pasojat qe popujt e tjere kane pesuar prej asaj "kulture dhe historie" qe urrejne liberalet duken qarte sot...

    Megjith mangesite qe mund te kete politika liberale, ajo qe ka rendesi esht fryma progresive dhe humaniste qe i rrethon, gje qe esht bere jo vetem karakteristike e liberaleve po e komplet kohes moderne.
    Ajo qe esht fakt esht qe bota gjithmon ka ardhur duke u liberalizuar. Ca lirohet iher nuk shtrengohet me.

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